Regenerative by Design

Joanne, hello everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by

design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,

climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell

Moore. Join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of

individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our

food system with both human
health and the health of our

planet. Hello, everybody. I am
so pleased you're joining us

today. I have Sean Kemp from the
Non GMO Project joining us

today. Welcome Sean,

thank you.

Yeah. It's so much fun when you
meet these other collaborators

Out in the great world of
regenerative and better for you,

food systems, and Sean's
definitely been one of those

that after the over the last
couple years, I have come to

really admire and respect, and
I'm just really happy you're

joining me today. We're going to
talk about technology

regeneration and ecosystem
building. So yay. I love that

topic, triad. Triad.

Thanks for Thanks for having.
Me, it all kind of revolves

around community. Like, for me,
it all is the theme of, how do

you build community? That's the
tools that that underpin that,

that's the that's the part that,
for me, that really is

important. Yeah,

it is because, you know, it's
funny how, in all these

activities that all of us who
work in this food system

transformation realm experience.
It's like, at the end of the

day, it's this need to
rehumanize our food system and

put community back into the
framework of it. So I know that

you and your work, your team, is
heavily involved in this and and

I just you've had a fascinating
background in general. So Sean,

if you could just take a minute
and let our listeners know,

like, who you are, where'd you
come from? What are you doing

today, and what kind of work?
What kind of work is making you

excited to get up every morning
and jam?

Yeah, so I'll start with today,
and then I'll jump back, like,

all the way back to my early
childhood, and I'll do it all in

like, 45 cents. At the moment, I
am in the Information Systems

renewal officer at the Non GMO
Project, so really making sure

that our technology systems
power the work that that the

project gets. But I mean, I got
my start in this when I was a

tiny little kid, like I was born
in the back countries of the

Golden Sierra wilderness in
California, I grew up llamas. I

lived in a yurt. I lived in a
geodesic dome. I had homemade

yogurt for breakfast when I was
a kid. So I grew up with this

kind of real appreciation for
where food comes from, the

health aspects of it and its
impact on the environment and

the communities that are around
it. And then I also love

technology, so I went that whole
route too, and spent some time

in big corporate tech. I was at
Microsoft for a number of years,

and then I started really
wanting more kind of meaning

within that. How do you actually
build a community, not just to

sell people stuff. I mean, not
that that's not a bad thing, but

like there was something was
drawing tie it

all back together with
intention. I mean, that's one

thing that when I, when I meet
kids that grew up with that kind

of intentionality, upbringing
around food, it's, it's not so

much always a health
conversation as it is an

intention and connection
conversation. And I think for

those of us who grew up in
households where, you know, it

could, which I did, we did a lot
of subsistence. So like hunting,

gardening, fishing, and then, of
course, processing everything

that came out of that, it just
gives you a really different

feel for, like, the whole life
cycle of a product and and like

the the hands and time and heart
that goes into actually making

something that you can use or
eat. It's a totally different

way of looking at things
compared to my my friends who

grew up like literally never
having that connection, like

food just came out of a box or
the microwave, and that was

pretty much the end of

it so much easier. Like, that's
as a kid, I wish I envied all of

my friends who had that, and I
go over their houses and have,

like, front pockets and whatever
else they had that was but, but

I'm really thankful, because now
I have an appreciation for that,

and it's much more a part of my
life and the work that I do to

support those especially place
based like, how do you how do

you support the local producers,
and have that be part of the the

ecosystem that we're that we're
all part of, yeah,

yeah, for sure. Now, what got
you interested in technology

early on? I mean, I'm thinking
of this little kid out in the

woods in the Sierra Nevadas. I
mean, what was it that got you

started that made you pick up a
computer? Because there's some

really cool stories out there of
people I've met recently that

literally grew up off grid or
completely cloistered away from

technology access, and have
become very brilliant innovators

when it comes to technology. So
like, tell us a little bit about

how that got started.

And this is like, I'm like a
second grader, and I would

first. Second grade time period,
and I would come in from machete

out in the in the woods by
myself. I mean, you know, the

stuff that we did as kids
growing up now, would, wouldn't

go out, but and my, my grandpa
actually was, was into

technology to a certain extent,
and he bought me a Commodore. It

was Vic 20 was the name of the
computer. It was like one of the

early computers. I just was
fascinated with programming,

like it was just this thing. So
I would go from outside fishing

and, you know, being a
completely dirty, muddy kid, to

coming inside and hooking up a
solar panel and batteries so

that I could run the computer.
The reason wasn't in that

the computer. All that's
amazing. That is amazing. You

had to wait for sunny days so
you could, like, juice up the

batteries and get some power.
There's, there's a lot of really

fascinating work coming out,
just thinking through, like, the

nature design process. And in
people who spend a lot of time

in nature and have exposure to
that. It's a very different way

of thinking and building and
programming when you spend a lot

of time in nature compared to
when you're just in front of a

computer all the time. Do you
think that your time outside has

given you a different, like,
more holistic view of how

technology can serve us?

Right? I think so. I mean, I
think that perspective seeing

all that. I also spent some time
growing up in Hawaii, and the

culture there is one of talking
story, and so that, that aspect

of being in relation with
people, and just spending time

talking story, I mean, there's
no other way to explain it other

than that's what you're doing.
It's just, it's the time you're

doing that. And so

you're humane for a minute. It's
like, it's sad how some

cultures, and I guess you know,
they love it because it's part

of their cultural fabric, but
there's not always the respect

for taking the time to just do
that talking story. It's like

that humaning moment. And I've
always loved that about about

Hawaii and about Pacific coastal
culture in general, from Alaska

to Hawaii down to Mexico. I feel
like, as a kid who grew up on

the Oregon coast like that was
really important and was taking

that time to just talk to your
neighbors. I

love it, yeah, yeah. And just
trade, trade, the stories. And

then I actually went through the
funny part is, is technology has

been a theme through my my
career and life, but I got a

degree in industrial design, so
I'm actually more of a human

centric designer than I am a
hardcore engineer or

technologist, and there I can
keep up with them all, but I

appreciate more of the the
design, The challenge. How do

you weave that tool into
something that makes us more

human, that allows us to do the
things that we're good at, and

takes away the mechanical side
of things. I am so

glad you just brought that up,
because that's a huge deal right

now. It's a huge deal right now.
Like, I think there's a tug of

war all the time with humans,
where we're like, Oh no,

technology is going to take our
our our talents away, or our,

you know, utility away. But I
think at the end of the day,

well placed technology can
actually free us up to have more

time to do the things we like to
do, or like the more creative

side of things, and help to
satisfy some of these mundane

tasks that often take a lot of
our creative time away. Yeah,

but

the important part is that we
have to hold the balance of that

developmental work to allow us
to be able to otherwise we just

become, we become part, an
extension of the machine, and

then we're just doing the
mechanical work in a in a

robotic way, as opposed to the
machines allowing us to have

that freedom. I mean, too often
we become our work, then becomes

just making up for the things
that we were too lazy to make

machines do spiritually in like
our information systems and

things like that, there's Yeah.

So how are you putting this all
to work today? Sean, like, what

are you currently doing at the
Non GMO Project? You guys have

some really cool stuff happening
there. And it's, I don't think

most customers think of
technology. When they think of

Non GMO Project, they think of
the very recognized trademark on

the package. It is the most
widely recognized trademark of

all that are out there. And I've
always found it very intriguing

that you guys are a very
innovative tech forward group of

people like tell us a little bit
about what you do.

Yeah. So I mean, what we've been
doing for the last I've been

with the project since January,
officially, but I've been

working, working with the
project for about two years

prior to that, and I've been,
I'm, I'm located here in

Bellingham, Washington, which is
where the project is, was

founded and still is
headquartered. So I've been

friends with and aligned with
the work that the project's been

doing for, you know, since their
inception, 17 years ago. The

work we're doing now is, is kind
of twofold, on the technology

front, more. One. We've been
working really hard over the

last nine months to completely
modernize our systems, so we

have really good foundational
work that we've done to be able

to do the next step of things,
which is our Food Integrity

work. So we've got our our
current Non GMO Project

verification activities that
happen the standard there and

the incredible work that's
happening. And we want to be

able to make that even more
accessible and be able to

empower the community with the
data that we have around that

stuff. So we've built the
infrastructure. We've basically

rebuilt the entire
infrastructure so that we can

start exposing that data to an
ecosystem of partners and

healthcare professionals and
nutritionists, and you name it

like, be able to actually start
opening that data up and be able

to actually support much more
extensible stuff with Our Food

Integrity initiative that we're
working on, Food Integrity

Collective is what you can find
it at, yeah, most

of our listeners probably
haven't heard of the Food

Integrity collective because it
is so new. And I you know right

now it's more kind of industry
insider type folks are involved,

or have heard or gone to an
event. What can you tell us

about the this, this new
movement that's coming out of

the Non GMO Project? Yeah,

yeah. So first of all, Food
Integrity, collective.org, if

anybody wants to check it out,
yeah. Little plug there for

that. But it's, it's, it's, it's
basically acknowledging that one

thing isn't enough, like we live
in a living system and just non

GMO or just organic or just fair
trade, while great and

necessary, aren't it's that
isn't going to move us forward

within the systems that we live
with. It we

kind of more transactional. You
know, it's not a systems type of

it's a component of a system,
but it is still a component,

yeah, yeah.

And to be healthy, you know,
that's something that's in right

relation with us. Culturally, we
have to be thinking about human

health. We have to be thinking
about planetary health, we have

to be thinking about community
health within all of those

things. So stuff like nutrient
density, biodiversity, the

packaging that goes into things,
how animals are cared for and

treated within that system, you
know, regenerative and what does

that look like, the the
workforce and the communities

that till the soil and produce
the food and create the thing,

like all of it, all of it goes
into those things and kind of

raising this developmental
mindset, if you will, around

that is an important aspect of
it. So it's very it's very

audacious, it's very
aspirational,

but, but it's also so important.
It's so needed, yeah, yeah.

That's, that's why I committed
to coming on with the project,

because I think

it's important. Yeah, it is
important, and it's and it's so

wonderful to see respected marks
and organizations that already

have a very strong presence in
the space, just taking it to the

next level, because that is
where we need to go. I mean, we

just have to get past this kind
of more reductionistic paradigm

where everything operates in a
silo and independent, totally

independent of the system. And
we know now, and it's becoming

so common across the board, that
people are like, yeah,

everything's interconnected.
Like, that's becoming like, more

culturally accepted as a
concept, which seems shocking

that ever wasn't but, I mean,
just even think, like 20 years

ago, this was like revolutionary
type conversations to have, like

in a outside of maybe a like
late night after after a potluck

on a college campus or
something, you know what I mean,

like, and it's really becoming
mainstream. And I even, like,

last time I went home, being
from rural Oregon, and I'm

sitting and hanging out with
some of my mom's friends and

whatnot, and they were like,
hey, you know, we're so

interested in how, you know the
these farming practices you've

been talking about all these
years are actually making

healthier food. And I was like,
Oh, we've arrived. Like, this is

amazing. I mean, this these are,
you know, and not with all due

respect, Mom, I love you and I
love your friends. But it hasn't

been the norm to have those kind
of conversations in her cohort.

And this is rural, rural Oregon,
and you know, they were so

excited about that because it
was empowering to them, like it

was empowering in a way that was
new, because I feel like their

generation, as baby boomers, it
was always like, what you didn't

do that would dictate your
health. So it was like a diet

driven culture. It was a
reductionistic, driven kind of

concept of like, Oh, I'm healthy
because I don't do this and I

don't eat that, and now it's
like, oh, I'm. Healthy because

I'm choosing to eat more of this
that has more of this because of

how it was raised. Like that is
a completely new way of looking

at the world.

I love it. I love

it. And so for you guys to
really be jumping in on that,

like higher level conversation
is, is a big is a big deal, but

it's a heavy lift. I know you
guys have given a lot of time

and thought into how you can get
involved with that, because it's

not, it's not a simple thing to
convey

to the point of ecosystems. It
requires an ecosystem like no no

one entity, no one certified, no
one no is going to be able to do

this. It does span everything.
Have to build ecosystems. We

have to build the capacity, we
have to build the will. We have

to help people along that
journey. And that requires a

whole network of people and
organizations and working

together and figuring out how
that and acknowledging that it

looks different in different
places. It can be size fits all,

type of approach that works 100%
everywhere. Yeah.

So how does technology help with
that? Sean? I mean, you really

walk that line between these
worlds of like technology

implementation, design thinking,
ecosystem thinking and food

systems like, where are you
seeing? The places where

technology can really help level
up this movement and make it

more scalable, more accessible
and more effective?

There's a couple of areas, and I
don't know which ones are the

right one. So it's kind of like
looking at these, all those

different different pedals or
different different aspects. One

is really around kind of the
trust. So how do you, how can

you capture evidence, validate
that evidence, maybe in a

distributed fashion, within
those things, so that people can

have trust, so that you can, I
think there's an aspect of

shortcut to trust that we have
to acknowledge is is the reality

today, and how do we how do we
start there, while giving us an

avenue toward where people can
actually go deeper and learn

about the things so I think
technology at scale will allow

us to be able to capture what's
happening at a farm, at a

processor, at a manufacturer,
maybe even at the store, so that

and validate that, so that we
have more trust in where stuff's

coming from, and then we can
open that up and not have it be

as binary of a validation, like
right now, everything is a

Binary validation.

Yeah, it is that's the system
that drives our current model.

But you brought up a really
important word, and it's

something that those of us who
work in in blockchain in

particular, are trust based
digital systems. We use this

word a lot, and I think it'd be
really helpful for us just to

take a second and like, step
aside and just talk about what,

what is distributed mean in this
context, and why this is such a

critical point when you think
about building trust in a

transaction economy, because
it's not centralized, it's

distributed like, there's a
tension point between this,

like, you know, consolidated
model, That is, it's, you know,

very colonial. Quite frankly,
it's top down. It's highly

regulated, and it's one where
distributed is like the

opposite. So like, I would love
for you to just help, help us

educate our our listeners. And
like, this is a fascinating

thing. And I remember the day it
dawned on me when I was

listening to some really
interesting like coffee and

concept meetings, and we were
deep diving on blockchain and

why it was important, and this
was, like in 2016 and it like

Thunderbolt, like hit me when I
realized what it meant for trust

and scaling trust in the
economy. So riff on that for me

for a minute. Sean, I'm excited
to hear your thoughts. Yeah,

yeah. So it's a big, broad
system, right? There's like,

millions of farmers, millions of
producers. I mean, you just, you

add up everything. There's
exponential numbers of these,

and every one of them have a
unique essence, or a unique

thing. So imagine, like a
farmer. I'll use my I'll use my

brother in law as an example. He
does pasture raised eggs, yeah,

and meat as well. But he's got
things that he does, some of

which he could verify or
certify, and some of which are

more just things that he does
there, like, he moves the

chicken coops every single day,
and they roll around on these

really cool wheels. But the
decentralized aspect is, how can

he capture that? How could he
capture evidence that he moves

it every day? Like, how could he
take a picture? Or, you know,

these super birds that are
roaming around that aren't even

in the things you. How can he
capture that level of

information? And then how might
his neighbors, or the people who

come and visit or or the
customers who come out and pick

up their eggs from the location
be able to validate that in a

decentralized manner, so that he
doesn't have to pay someone

$1,000 or $5,000 to come out
every three weeks,

like he's doing it, because he
is, like, proud of what he does,

and he wants to validate the
activities and be able to share

it like, that's a very powerful
thing when, when you really

stand and think about it, it's
not because, like, you know,

somebody's telling them, oh, you
have to do this because we have

some, you know, regulatory thing
or whatever. It's literally,

like, almost autonomously
driven. And that's a really cool

concept when you when you start
to nerd out about, like, what

that means for things like the
food system and for quality

across the food system, and for,
quite frankly, respect, and, you

know, just respect for the
producers of the food system,

like, you know, there's
something to be said for pride

and and provenance, and when you
can show proof of what you're

doing, and it comes all the way
down to the farm, and there's

pride in that, And you're
sharing it that drives a whole

nother level of quality. It
drives a whole nother level of

human connection in the food
system.

And then, if you can
decentralize it, or that, that

validation of the evidence right
then, then there's a trust chain

that can go up the people who
may not be able to make it out

there again, but like, when he
goes, he has cameras, and so

when people say, Are you sure?
Because they don't, I mean,

like, prove it. That's the live
cam. And says, here they are.

People can see it like, that's
just an example of how he's

doing. That validation of the
evidence that's there. But what

can we do that at a bigger
scale? How can we allow

producers, the creators of
stuff, to be able to have their

evidence be verified in a really
unique essence way, so it

doesn't have to just come down
to one certification, one

standard, right? That it can be.
I mean, like we look at the Food

Integrity Collective, we have
eight petals. There's like,

eight different things. Yeah,
that's a lot. Like, there's

probably, you know, how can you
do that? I think that's the

decentral. I think you have to
have some aspects of that and

community. Like, I think that's
also where community comes in,

like, who? Who are those people
that are validating we did a lot

of work my I had a company
called Action sprout that I

founded. We worked with a lot of
nonprofits and political

candidates. About 150,000 used
our platform, and we sat on top

of Facebook. And one of the
things that we did a lot of work

with was political discourse
related to the elections, 2016,

2020, terms in between, and what
we found was the best kind of

inoculation for trolls and bots
and election interference In

these comments was people who
knew each other. So when

somebody would come in and try
and have really disruptive

activities within those systems,
the people who were recognized

in the community were able to
resolve that really quickly, and

they were able to call it out
and say, I live here. Who are

you? You're not part of this
party or this party. Right?

The authenticity part kicked
right in.

They were able to validate the I
mean, they didn't have the

evidence, you know, they could
say, I know you, I know you. Who

are you? Where's our mutual,
common thing. So community is a

really important aspect of all
of those things. I

think 100% I mean community, by
nature, is decentralized. It's

like clusters of independent
people and families and

communities. And speaking of
that, my son is walking in the

door. So it's going to be loud
here for a second, and but it is

that whole, like, you know,
concept of, you know, where to

me, I think technology is today,
when I look at the the

transition into modern society
that we're at where, you know,

we have a very highly populated
world. We've got, you know,

access to interesting digital
communication happening like

globally, which is shocking. I
remember going to North Africa,

really remote parts of North
Africa, and Tunisia, back in

2005 I think it was no 2009 and
they would bring in their phones

from remote Bedouin villages and
plug them in in town. They would

push all the data from like a
community Wi Fi base, and they

would take the phones back, like
out into the middle of the

desert. And it was. Amazing,
because it was for the first

time in in the history that they
could recall, they now had power

over their own economy, and they
knew if they were getting

cheated when they came in to
trade their camels and whatnot.

And I thought, wow, like, this
is actually a really powerful

thing that these very remote,
you know, people who are living

in the same way that their
ancestors did 2000 years ago,

and that they they value this
connection to technology because

it allows them to participate in
larger communities that help

them have economic viability,
and it makes it fair, like it

actually leveled the playing
field for them. Because before

it was all based on like, Well,
this guy told me that we get

this for our for our mutton, and
that's, is what it is. We don't

have any way to compare. We
don't know. And once they got

those phones, boom, like,
suddenly they were like, wait,

you know, this guy's been
totally short changing us this

whole time. We just didn't know
where Muhammad, one village

down, he can pay us double. And
that's, that's a pretty powerful

thing. So I love it.

Just information is, I mean,
it's critical, and then making

sense of that is, I mean, one of
the challenges I think, right

now within the systems that
we're in is whom are overloaded

with information, and so we do
have to think about like, how do

we, how do we help people make
sense of it? There may be some

stuff around AI there that's
that's going to help with some

of that stuff. And then I think,
yeah, so just learning how to

think like we, we as a as a
system, have to make room for

what we at the project called
developmental thinking. So

within that, there's a
practitioner called Carol

Sanford. As a she's got a ton of
really great books. They've been

they were my aha moments like,
amazing,

yeah, yeah.

But it's, it's this idea that
really, in order to kind of be

able to move in a developmental,
regenerative way, we need to be

able to have, I gave a talk last
week, and somebody I had said,

Isn't that just critical
thinking? Yes, it is, yeah, but

it's like holistic critical

thinking, it is. It's slightly
different than just critical

thinking,

yeah, yeah. We have to be
resourced like and we we have to

do that for the system, like the
system has to do that and move

toward those things so that
people can develop more and more

of that ability to digest the
information, determine whether

it's right or wrong. The
technology has to help take the

evidence and validate it, so
there is stuff there, so that,

and this is where, like, the
being human part really comes in

for me, so that we can actually
make those judgments that are

almost based on intuition, as
opposed to just having to have

it be based on data. Like,
there's a, there's a beautiful

thing there, where we can, we
can know, we know, a lot of

times what's right. We can feel
it. Yeah, I'm

glad you're bringing that up,
because that's a that's a big

deal. Otherwise, it's very easy
to get pulled into, what is it

like? Pygmalion complex? I can't
remember what it's called. It's

like where you worship the
model, not the reality. And I

think sometimes such an
obsession with just data driven

systems, and at the blatant
disregard of gut instinct or

common sense can lead us on some
very scary, dark paths.

Like, that's what makes us
human, living systems like,

that's the mean. I think there's
a phrase predictably irrational

or irrational. You know that
irrationality is, is part of

system, really, and function.
Yeah? I mean, it's part of what

makes food great and like, when
it's not, if it's always tastes

exactly the same, looks exactly
the same, is exactly it's not

actually beautiful.

Yeah, I know that we end up like
the Borg from Star Trek, where

they just take, like a little
capsule, and that's it. There's

no enjoying food. And, you know,
I've often been haunted that all

these years later, I was like,
that is so second twisted, like

I get it, but, um, it just kind
of defeats the purpose of, like,

the the come, like, the
communing with your food. I

mean, food, food is like, you're
the one time people really

commune with nature a few times
a day. You know, it's like a

it's a thing, and it's deeply
human. It's deeply human. So I

love that. I love the work that
you guys are doing. It's been so

much fun getting to know your
team in a more complex, dynamic

way, because you guys are all,
like, really outside of the box

thinkers and very compassionate
and excessively smart, which is

an awesome combination and and
in a position to really help

people rethink this stuff. Like,
okay, what? What are we doing?

Like, why are we eating? Is what
we're choosing to eat. Good for.

US, is it good for the planet?
And we need more evangelizers

out there that are bringing that
to light

at scale? To be it wants to be
that unified view, like, if it's

just like, this has been part of
that, I think the problem is

that we've dilated just about
our individual health, we need

to be like, when, yeah, big
punch the system, 100% Yeah,

impact on the climate, which is
kind of where some of the more,

like soil health, regenerative
stuff is, or we miss, we miss

the community health aspect.
Like, how is it impacting the

communities? And if we just
focus on that and it's about

labor and labor conditions, then
we miss the I mean, it's and

that's why this is because we
don't realize the intersection

of all that 100%

and we can't see it. I mean,
it's not visible to us,

especially now that our food
systems are not consisting of

like person to person
transactions. It's we're always,

like, two to 10,000 steps
removed from it. And I think

again, this is where technology
is very valuable as a tool to

help us regain some of that
connection, especially when

things have come from many, many
transactions away. And I always

think I hate to pick on
avocados, but I do pick on

avocados a lot. I love avocados,
full disclosure. But you know,

avocados are one of those things
that you know, for years has

been touted well for I mean, I'm
of the age where it was like the

devil back in the 90s, because
it was like everyone was fat

free and all of that stuff. And
then suddenly people started

eating avocados again, and now
they're like the new, you know,

cures everything type food. But
there's this dark and dirty

secret that remains that
avocados have some pretty

catastrophic environmental
impacts depending on the

stewardship, and can have
disastrous impacts on

communities, especially
indigenous communities with

water rights and whatnot. And to
me, they kind of epitomize that

perfect blend of understanding
where your food came from.

Because I live in northern
Idaho, there's no way we'll ever

grow an avocado here. Ever,
ever, ever, ever. So if I want

an avocado, it has to be grown a
long ways away and change hands.

And I like to know, like, where
did this come from? Am I can

contributing to an indigenous
community in Chile that's or,

you know, that's being, like,
moved off their land because

they lose water rights because
of avocado farming. Like, those

are things that actually would
affect my purchasing if I were

able to know. And the sad thing
is, is I'm not able to know even

at a health food store. And
again, that's why I'm I'm really

pleased that you guys with the
Food Integrity, integrity

collaborative and Non GMO
Project, are really thinking

through that deep complexity of
transparency. And what that

means for food

transparency is a, it's a tough
one, like, I mean, that is, it's

a very tough Yes, at the core of
the non gay male project. I

mean, what Megan webgate founded
the whole thing on was informed

choice for people to be able

to get the right to know do

whatever they want with that. I
mean, choose this, you're bad,

if you choose this, you're good.
You are the right to

you have the right to know so
important and shocking that you

know it ever got to the point
where that wasn't Yeah, just a

normal thing. But here we are.

It's a tough one. So I mean,
like in the technology side of

things, when I talk about
ecosystems and technology,

ecosystems and everything
there's within the within the

food system that we have, the
food the food supply system,

there are, there are a lot of
reasons to not have transparency

in those systems. There are a
lot of incentives in place to

obfuscate and hide the stuff in
those systems. I mean for very

good I mean very obvious and
good reasons. For

good reasons, like trade
secrets. You're like, Oh, I

really don't want everybody to
know what my recipe for my

magical winning hot sauces,

and the fact that you know who
they are, that is the trade

secret. I mean, there are a lot
of dismiss the like, yeah, yeah,

but they're there in the systems

they are. And it doesn't mean
it's wrong or bad or has any

malintent, and it does make it
really complex to have

meaningful transparency, even if
it is kind of like a

transparency, where you may not
know all the detail, but you

have validation that it is
indeed, you know, aligning with

some sort of value attribute
system that's meaningful to you

as a consumer,

that. I think that's going to be
one of the areas that we as a as

people, just within these
systems through there. And I

mean, we're seeing it within
governments. You're seeing it

within like, what Europe's doing
with their regulations around

deforestation, their eudr
regulations, yes, trying to get

more of that, and running up
against a lot of that trans, the

transparency that doesn't want
to be in the system. I think

that's going to be, I think that
will be one of our big one of

our big challenges is, how do we
get into relation with food, and

how much of the system needs to
change and how much other

mechanisms need to be put around
it so that somebody can be in

relation, like, how do you put
somebody in relation with an

avocado when you can't find out
where it came from? Yeah, right.

And the thing is, is we could.
It's not, it's not that hard to

get it done. But like you said,
there's not always a lot of

yearning from the decision
makers to make that happen, just

because it might, it might
disclose some things that are

uncomfortable, that they need to
fix, that maybe they either

don't know how to fix. In all
fairness, that is a thing, and

it doesn't mean they're wrong.
Because if they're like, oh

gosh, we don't want to shine a
light on this, because we really

don't know how to solve it, and
then they don't want to be

villainized like in the public
eye. I totally understand that,

like, that's actually a very
legitimate concern. But, you

know, I feel like this, these
are just these kind of high

level, sophisticated problems
that technology can be a tool to

help us solve and still have a
enough sophistication in the

solution where we we don't do
the open kimono style of

transparency that some people
like the I love the open source

folks, but I'm like, that's
never going to work on food and

agriculture, never in a million
years. Because you literally

can't just have wide open eyes
on everything that you do, and

quite frankly, that could
actually be quite dangerous from

a food system security
standpoint, from like, a

domestic security even level. So
it is, it is something that we

have to think through the design
process very, very carefully,

and we probably won't get it
right on day one. We're going to

going to have to iterate to make
sure that we, like, let it

evolve to being what is best.
That's my thought. Anyways,

like I always hold this one is,
how do we not add extra costs

into the system? Yeah, because,
yeah, like the intent is, is

good, and often we end up
introducing all these extra

things that somebody has to do,
which may be good in itself.

They might add significant cost,
but it adds

up. Yeah, it adds up, especially
for small players. So if it's

expensive, then it becomes
prohibitive to small players,

which is a big deal,

where we just become we we
create more of a divide. The

stuff that is in relation is
only there for the people with

means and affluence to be able
to afford it. And that, for me,

is a big like, I have a bad
that's a big deal. But I think

the fact that most people cannot
afford the food that is good for

them, their planet and their
communities is one of the

fundamental breaking points in
our in our supply system, like

the fact that most people in
this country, their primary and

closest source of food is Dollar
General, the food that they're

like. What does it look like to
have those supply chains have

that transparency in a way that
doesn't, that doesn't put food

scarcity even more there. Like,
how do you do that,

or take away from investing in
value in the actual food to

begin with? Like, you know, if
it really comes down to, like,

Oh, I'm going to choose a better
quality ingredient, or, Oh,

whoops, I have to pay for some
expensive side deal. Well, I You

sure don't want it to be at the
sacrifice of the quality of the

food or the compensation to the
person who made it high quality

in the first place. So it is a
very delicate balance. I agree

with you. I grapple with that
every day, truly. Um, which is,

which is fascinating. So, you
know, what's next for you guys?

I mean, where, where are you,
where are you taking all of this

right now? At, at the, you know,
food integrity, collective and

Non GMO Project, and you as a
person, like, what do you think

is next for you guys?

You know, I mean, we're not
speaking too much for the

project as a whole. Yeah. I
mean, I think there's, there's

two, there's two things that are
that are there? One is more

actionable insights, so that we
can continue to really make a

difference in the non GMO space.
I mean, that there's new

analogies coming online. There's
all kinds of there's a lot of

stuff coming at us there that is
very high. Hard to interpret.

And I'm really glad you guys
have stuck your foot in the

ground and you're like, No, here
is where we draw the line,

because I think it's, it's
confusing to me, and I have a

degree in science, and I work in
the food system, and I find it

daunting. So I can't even
imagine, you know, for

consumers, like, they need to
have like, a guiding light of

like, okay, I know that these
guys have thought this through,

and where do we draw those
lines? Yeah,

there's new work. There's new
words, new terms coming in,

like, precision, which, I mean,
I like beer seems like a great,

I mean, it was great. Like, that
sounds like a really good beer,

but like, that's a that's a
that's a GMO. I mean, there's

definite focus there. How do we
get better, more actionable

insights through the data we
hold on the non GMO verified

products to be able to actually
make a more meaningful impact on

all the things that are coming
online there, both in the US and

globally. Because food supply
system, yeah. And then really

starting to bring online the
work around the Food Integrity

collective, to figure out what
that looks like in a way that

can scale meaningfully, to take
the great work that's that's

already happened over the last
17 years within GMO space and

the recognition that's there,
the relationships and trust with

retailers and consumers and
eaters and brands. And how do we

take that and not just let it
atrophy over time or like become

the stodgy stewards of that
thing, but actually use that to

move into something that's even
more regenerative, even more

impactful, and figure that out
collectively, like I mentioned

to them, it's that. I mean, the
approach here isn't just come up

with a new standard, get it
written up, stand your label on

the path, and we're done. Kind
of thing this is, this is

developmental, like, how do we
all work to develop the systems,

the ecosystem, technology, ways
of tracking this stuff, ways of

defining what's good, what's
like, what should be in there,

yeah,

yeah. And what don't we know?
Yeah, I and I love that. You

know, I love the work there. In
all full disclosure, I do work

with the Food Integrity
collective, because I really

believe in the work, even though
I'm not, I'm not personally

working in the branded space as
much anymore, because we've

really drifted to serving B to
B, and value chain development

from seed to plate, and but it
just I I'm so pleased with how

it's coming in that way, where
it is like a very much like, we

want to hear everybody's
opinion. We don't want to come

in and say, Okay, here's the new
rules. Everybody like, you know,

show up and shut up. This is
what we're doing. It's, it's

very iterative, and that's super
unique. And I just believe a lot

in the process. I think it's,
it's really great. It's truly a

regenerative by design type
approach, which is fantastic.

We're going to need that moving
forward, because there's a lot

of complexity coming at us, and
it's, it's great to see good

people working together to get
that done. So yeah,

like, what? We have these eight
pedals, from, you know, minimal

processing to packaging to non
GMO pedals. But what? What is it

that people are doing? What is
it that they're valuing? What is

it that they think add value for
the system they're closer

connected to the system? To
define those think about it from

a technology and system
standpoint, it's like, what

evidence do people do? People
like farmers, ranchers,

producers, brands, eaters,
consumers? Yeah, do they want to

have in the system and to have
that verified, what level of

rigor within each and then what
we need to make sure is online

and but system, I don't mean
like the Non GMO Project,

building the system. We might
build pieces, but other players,

like, what are the who are all
the people that are doing that?

What other you know, who else is
out there that's doing those

things? Because it's all part of
a system, and nobody's going to

build the one thing that does
everything right.

100% agree. It's like the hero
mindset of like one well, like

Ethan, from how good he's like,
there's no one ring that will

rule them all when it comes to
regen. And I'm like, I have

stolen that line on many
occasions, because it just, it's

so perfect. And, yeah, it's,
it's just really refreshing to

see an organization that has
such a position of legacy in the

market to push back on that and
go, no, there is going to be no

one ring ruling them all. This
is a collaborative process, and

we need to work together as a
group. It's very cool. So I know

I would imagine our listeners
are going to want to learn more

about these initiatives, because
chances are they might not know.

Know that there's this much
going on at Non GMO Project

headquarters, which is super
cool. You already did give a

plug on Food Integrity
collective and where people can

find out more information. We'll
put that in the show notes as

far as you. Sean, if somebody's
like, I want to talk to somebody

who's regen tech, food systems.
Guy, like, where can they reach

out and like, follow you, follow
your work, maybe have a

conversation.

It's probably the best place to
find me. Yeah,

that's a good one.

John Kemp, on LinkedIn, there
was, it's a little hard to find

me because there was two famous
basketball players in the

Pacific Northwest, both named
Sean Kemp, no figure, dominate

the stuff. But yeah, it's like,
if somebody wants to get ahold

of me directly or through the
info, I mean, they can contact,

they can get in touch with me
through just a general info at

the Non GMO Project.

Well, that's perfect. Okay,
great. That's awesome. It's

amazing. How many conversations
get spurned from these podcasts,

like, you know, and whatnot. So
it's always wonderful when

people actually can reach out
and follow up and ask questions

or contribute to the
conversation. So for all of you

who are out there listening,
thank you for joining us, and we

are going to wrap it up, but
please take a minute to share

this with your friends. Let your
friends and community know that

Non GMO Project is stepping up
to a whole nother level of

community engagement, and I
would imagine that your friends

and family will be excited to
hear that and and just make sure

to give us a rating if you have
a second too. So thanks so much

for tuning in. Sean, thanks for
joining me and letting us know

what you're up to. And it's been
really fun. I've enjoyed it. I

you. Thank you. All right. Well,
now you've got one of your own

super fun All right, so we'll
see you next time everybody this

episode

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