Regenerative by Design

Joanna, hello everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by

design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,

climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell

Moore. Join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of

individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our

food system with both human
health and the health of our

planet. All right, welcome to
the regenerative by design

podcast. I am very thrilled to
have guests, Steve and Dennis

here today. I'm going to let
them introduce themselves to

you, but a little bit of
background. I first heard them

speak at a conference years ago.
I think it was even before

COVID. And I was absolutely
blown away by the way that these

guys think when it comes to
soil, soil chemistry, the health

of the plants and the quality of
the food that comes from those

plants or crops. And I'm just
really thrilled to have them

here today on the regenerative
by design podcast, because if

you're a regular listener, you
know that one of our goals is to

really unpack a lot of the
different diverse subjects that

need to come together to truly
create a food system that is

better for us and better for the
planet. And we can't do any of

that without really
understanding the soil. So

welcome. Steven Dennis, I'm so
happy to have you here.

Thank you, Julie, yeah.

So I'm Dennis. I'm the Director
of Sales and technical support

here at Tanya biologicals.
Basically, my role in the

company is help growers, farmers
understand and utilize the

technology that we bring to the
market today based off of soil

health

programing programs, the
importance program, yeah.

So just, you know, as we talk
about with human health, the

soil is the exact same way. It's
not just one thing. It's a

combination of things that work
together, and how we understand

those, and how we utilize those.
A lot of times in human health,

we go to a lot of different
people to figure out what things

we need to do, whether it's what
foods we need to eat, exercise,

we need to do, stress levels,
all of these things, we bind

them together in order to
become, basically, as we look at

it, a healthy digestive, healthy
immune system. The soil health

is the same way. So I help
growers understand that.

Yep, my name is Steve. My name
is Steve Becker. I am the Chief

Science Officer Tainio
biologicals. I work a lot with

the microbes, so I guess a
little bit of background on

Tainio, founded in 1985 by Bruce
Tainio. And he started off as a

plant breeder, plant geneticist,
and he basically got frustrated

trying to develop different seed
lines that were resistance to

pests, and he'd change it. He'd
create one that was resistance,

and then a couple years later,
the pests are right back. So he

after hitting your head against
the wall a few times, and you

know the definition of insanity,
well, how do we get past that?

So okay, so how does a plant
protect itself, its immune

system? What is a plant's immune
system? Trace minerals,

primarily and the balanced
nutrition. How does a plant get

it back in the early, early, mid
80s, he was thinking it was

microbial related. So he started
generating and producing and

growing different species of
they're called plant growth

promoting rhizobacteria. We also
grow plant growth enhancing

fungi, and work with mycorrhizal
fungi as well. So our goal is to

take a bunch of those different
species and tiny we grow them

individually, blend them
individually, so that we can

kind of lean on the functions of
those microbes to help the

farmer access the nutrition
that's already available to help

with stresses that are
associated with the environment,

with the plants is going through
on a daily basis, because that's

how we end up with better
quality yields and better

quality nutrition coming out of
the food health care

plants, you know. And for those
of you who are listening, you

know the work that Bruce did is
so pioneering to where we are

today, in the regenerative
movement, like honestly, in the

in the real thought leadership
of modern regen. Like Bruce's

work is like legacy,
foundational, but because he was

so ahead of his time, I feel
like he he hasn't gotten the

spotlight. And the beautiful
thing about his work is that he

was able to actually create a
company that has created, like,

long, lasting legacy, like you
can still enjoy the fruits of

his ingenuity every day in
working with your team, which is

actually like an incredibly
beautiful lesson and and that

flowed through his late wife,
Tina as well. And it's just a

really beautiful story. And I,
you know, it's, it's fascinating

in talking to like John Kemp,
who's, um, an advisor of mine,

and you know, when he talks
about Bruce's work, it's

literally, with, like,
unbelievable reverence. So for

those of you who are listening
and haven't had a chance to

unpack his work, um, you know,
we really. Have a lot to thank

him for, for where we are today,
and our understanding of soil

health, plant immune system
function, and, like, really

creating crops that are having
superior nutrition and

productivity because of, like,
understanding that beautiful,

intricate relationship that
happens in the rhizosphere. And

when I first heard you guys
talk, I was like, holy cow, I

was an ICU nurse. Still, like,
the first time I heard you guys

speaking, I'm like, damn. These
guys are like, ICU docs, or

like, you know, like, because if
you look at your crop, like a

patient, and you look at this
rhizosphere, like the digestive

tract of the patient, and here I
had just had interdisciplinary

rounds in the ICU, and we're
like, talking about all the

things, I was like, Dang, this
is like interdisciplinary

rounding, but for crops. And
I've always thought that was a

fun analogy.

Jenny, it's funny in our
handbook. And this is clear back

from, you know, mid 80s, early
90s in our handbook. One of the

things that started was a quote,
quote from Bruce, and he used to

talk about farmers in America
and have a greater impact on

human health than all the
doctors or medicines that exist

today. Yeah,

I would have to agree. I think
that that's foundationally true.

And like you say, it all comes,
you know, use we so often talk

about eat healthy, you know, now
I kind of go back to the idea of

what Bruce talks about is what
is eating healthy. I mean, we

have to trace that some of what
your work, that you're doing

right now. We have to trace that
all the way back to the point of

where that seed went into the
ground, and actually, really

before that, of where did that
seed come from. It's all tied

together. It is. It's

that continuum of actions that
create a truly healthy food. And

you know, for too long, I feel
like Americans have always

viewed health and healthy eating
through this super

reductionistic lens. It's like,
it's so binary, like, oh, that's

bad for you. That's good for
you. And never does it actually

talk about, really, where the
food came from.

Like,

you know, can can we make a
better, you know, the the shamed

foods of the world, like, can we
make a better burger and fries?

Well, I mean, interestingly
enough, like the other day, we

made burgers and fries at home,
and it was potatoes from

Schoonover farms in eastern
Washington, 94% reduced

synthetic use, beautiful, higher
fiber. And the beef came from

John and Betty mobs, amazing
regenerative ranchers. And I was

like, Oh my gosh. Like, this is
really cool. Like, you know, we

can do better. And I think what
you guys are doing is helps

provide a lot of scientific
support for that narrative that

is needed.

We go back, Steve and I utilize
the slide a lot that shows

basically the soil, the plant
and the human body. And so often

we start with the idea of, well,
we need to eat better foods. We

need to eat healthier we have to
trace that all the way back to

the soil, and that's what we do
here at manual biologicals. Is

what are the things that we can
do to build soil health based

off of soil structure, water,
holding capability, nutrient

helping capability, building
that plant immune system so that

it's a healthier because all
these when we start to talk

about it directly correlate to
the nutritional value, or the

nutritional density of that food
that comes from that plant that

then goes into the human body.
And that's what Bruce talked

about, I mean, in the mid 80s.

And then it was, you know, 2010
2011 when the idea of

rhizophagy, rhizophagy came
about, and then 2018 we've got

to give credit to Dr White and
his team, Rutgers, working on

elucidating how that system is
functioning and helping people

realize that plants are actually
consuming microbes. I mean, we

think about plants as the
primary producers, but they're

also a consumer, and they are
purposefully consuming these

organisms. And I mean, the main
reason for that, we like to look

at microbes. You think about and
you look at a microscope, some

of the cocoyed ones, they're
little round balls. Some of the

bacillus, they're a rod shape.
They look like pills. They look

like a supplement. So looking at
the analysis of them, yeah, they

do.

It's, I never thought about
that. That's cool. They're

little pills, and that's what
the plant is. I mean literally

eating. You look at the analysis
of those microbes, and in

general, it's approximately a 10
to two, which is NPK, nitrogen,

phosphorus, potassium, a 10, a
two and a two, plus all the

trace minerals. And that's the
side that a lot of conventional

AG is is really falling apart
with, is the focus on NPK. NPK

is absolutely critical for plant
growth. You can't take those

away. But if all you're focusing
on is those, the entire system

falls apart. If you're trying to
build a house. All I need is

wood. That's all I need. No,
it's not going to be a house.

It's not going to be a stable
structure. So utilizing those

organisms as the primary uptake
vacuum from the soil, extracting

nutrition, is what we're seeing,
allowing us to balance the

nutrition in the plant at the
same time significantly reducing

inputs. We've seen reductions
nitrogen is one of the easiest

ones. We've been able to reduce
nitrogen to 1/5 and maintain

same yield, and that's because
we're using the microbes,

through biological nitrogen
fixation, to take the nitrogen

that surrounds us in the
atmosphere, and feed the plant,

just like it's almost like
nature.

And you know, so you ask that
question, is, so why is that

important? Well, we look at the
idea of plants are not plant

roots are not great at getting
nutrition out of the soil, just

like our gut, just like our gut,
we need that biological system

in order to make nutrient
available, as you talked about

on the rise of age cycle. But
when we start to think about

that, how does that impact the
greater environment? So we

reduce the nitrogen, we have
better nutrient uptake. We have

better trace minerals. The plant
has all of those because now it

gets it from the soil, all that
goes into the fruit and into the

human body. So this is how the
system is designed to work. But

then we start to think globally
of, okay, what's the nitrogen

leaching impact on wells, on
waterways, on algae blooms, dead

zones, eutrophication, yep, all
of these things. So now we start

to build that. And then we go
into big deal. And when we talk

about building carbon in the
soil, that's a big one. We're

not burning up carbon. We're
actually storing carbon within

that through dead microbial
biomass, through the plant

debris within that soil, all of
these things, as you say, it's

almost like it was designed to
function this way. It's so

bizarre how it works that way.
And

it's wild to me, like, how, you
know, some of the things you

just mentioned, like carbon
eutrophication. I mean, I don't

think anyone has, at this point,
not heard about the dead zone in

the Gulf of Mexico, and now we
had these crazy hurricanes. And,

you know, everyone feels so
helpless, like it's such a big

problem. But the reality is, is
it starts at such a micro scale

level, and we can be corrected,
like we we're not stuck with

this outcome. And I think that
there's a pervasive narrative

out there that's like, well,
we're stuck with this model.

There's nothing we can do about
it. We're going to hell in a

hand basket. And what you guys
do every day and you help

farmers to achieve is proof that
that model isn't the only way,

like we actually can do it
different. We can still have

super high yielding productivity
at the field without being so

extractive, because you're
working with nature rather than

against it, which is super
powerful.

Or, you know, this

isn't, you know, we go back to
the idea of, prior to this

information and utilizing some
of these tools and the

technology that came out, the
agricultural practice that we

use to feed the world was the
best tool that we had. But now

we're finding that there's
better tools out there, and

they're better, and we're
understanding it, and that's

part of it is, you know,
basically to embrace this and

now carry this forward. That's
what we try and do here. And

even based on the food that we
look at, the things that you're

doing is they're all as as we
say, they're all interconnected.

Bruce used to talk about that,
how everything is

interconnected. Everything you
do. Oh, Butterfly Effect,

yeah, yeah, I guess. Theory,
Yep, yeah.

I mean, all of these things when
we start to think about it, to

me, to us, we get really
excited. Everybody says we kind

of nerd out sometimes on this,
but it's fine, yeah.

I love it when you guys nerd
out, because it's super

important. And I think it was,
you know, honestly, one of the

early sessions I was listening
to you guys, where it also was a

real reinforcement, the plants
are farmers. You know, they're

not just passive and, you know,
we're cultivating them, and then

they, voila, they suddenly
blossom out something we can

eat. It's like plants are
farmers and and they're very

intentional in sacrificing a lot
of their sugar metabolism to

feed that rhizosphere. Like all
of those that that complex

ecosystem that lives in their
root area, they're dedicating a

lot of sugar to feeding those
little critters. And, you know,

I think for a long time, we just
didn't appreciate why that was

so important. Why would, why
would a plant sacrifice a huge

part of their metabolic output
to feed another cluster of

organisms. And I think that
there's so much we can learn

from plants when I think about
our own human health, and we've

had the exact same neglect for
the importance of the gut

microbiome over the last few
decades, just like we kind of

ignored that at the soil level.
And. And I'm grateful for

antibiotics. I mean, I wouldn't
be here today if it weren't for

antibiotics. So I'm not one of
those hardcore hardcore like,

get rid of everything and go
back to 1680 but you know, when

we think about just this
cultural shift of appreciation

around biofilms and microbiomes
that happened after the age of

antibiotics, we just have a lot
of catching up to do because we

didn't appreciate the
externalities. We just didn't

know. And rather than, you know,
villainizing it, what's cool is

now we, we know both, both ways,
and you guys are proving that

there's a lot we can do to move
forward.

You know, you talk about that
root exudates or sugars, and you

know, we they're sugars, but
there's so much more. It's a

communication tool that the
plant uses to communicate with

those organisms within the soil
environment. And you know what's

really cool about that? You
know, Steve talked about Dr

White's research, not only does
that plant recruit those

organisms to take it in in order
to digest them, partially digest

them and get that nutrition from
that but it also will spit them

back into the soil environment
where they do that process all

over again. But as research has
proven now, that not only do

they recruit specific organisms
in order to get the nutrition

like they phosphate solubilizing
bacteria, but then it'll clone

them those protoplasts inside
that root meristem and spit

rather than one out, it'll spit
five out, because it's like, I

need more of them. And so
they're specifically recruiting

them, then cloning them to do a
specific function within that so

environment. And if these guys
aren't there, basically,

sometimes, you know, it's like
your cell phone you don't

answer. There's no voice mail.
There's nowhere for them to come

back later once that call is not
answered, because, let's say the

soil is not healthy, then the
plant goes somewhere else. It

needs food so it may not get
phosphorus. It takes up

something else because it wants
to fill its plate. And there,

you know, our human bodies the
same way. You know, I sometimes

say, if you want a salad, but
you go to an to a 711 and not

that seven elevens are bad, no,
it just they may not have that

salad that you want. So you you
grab something else. Only

vegetable

you might find is like a potato
chip, which is so far from a

vegetable anymore, that it's not
even funny, but, you know, it's

just it is one of those things.
And you know, speaking of that

topic, I actually one of the
things I've been wanting to pick

your brain about forever, and I
was hoping to last week, when we

were all together, is like how
we're seeing this emerging trend

of higher and higher heavy metal
concentrations in food. And this

is something that Colleen
Cavanaugh at zgo foods is really

focused on, and she and I are
working together on a grant to

help drive some diversity in the
Northern Rockies. Really, really

amazing pioneering work that
she's doing. But, you know, from

a root or like, rhizosphere
perspective, I've been really

curious to understand more about
like that whole uptake game and

why we're just seeing in what
little evidence I've seen, I

feel like there's a lot lower
threshold of heavy metal

accumulation in these
regenerative foods that have

been tested compared to their
conventional counterparts. Do

you guys have any insight into
that?

There's several directions we
can take that. I remember

looking back years ago, there
was some work done around our

area on the Hanford Reach. They
were looking at hexavalent

chromium, and they found that by
dumping molasses in, they're

changing that valence, they're
changing that oxidation state of

the Chromium to a less
destructive. And they found that

it was actually Bacillus
necterium. It's changing it so

form of material, form of heavy
metal, matters quite a bit. We

can find and isolate different
organisms that have a capacity

to break down pesticides. Some
of them will hyper accumulate

some of the heavy metals, and
part of it is also, I think the

foods that generally go with a
biological farming approach are

different. One of the things
that we've been looking at and

seeing and I biosolids. Bio
solids are scary. There's so

much stuff that humans eat, and
then when we eat it, it's

concentrated in our feces and
concentrated even more on our

waste treatment facilities.
Taking that material, putting it

back out in the fields is
dangerous Well,

let alone all the other things
that end up in that

micro plastics, which they don't
even test for.

Yeah, so I mean, all of that
ends up concentrated into a

field environment, which then
carries on, not only into the

food and through the plant, but
how does. Affect what we always

go back to, how does that affect
the biological system, and how

do those things disrupt that
diversity of those organisms

within that soil environment?
And if you think about it again,

we always start at the soil and
work up if it does that in the

soil environment, and then it
does it in the plant. What does

it do to the human and that gut
and that environment, because, I

mean, it carries through. We all
we a lot of times, also look at

overall plant health and
nutrition balance and based off

of pH, based off of plant
stresses, all of these things

are going to dictate those heavy
metals that we're talking about

within that soil environment.
For an example, a lot of times

we'll see a root borne disease.
As you see a root borne disease,

and you look at a plant's SAP
analysis, you will immediately

see the aluminum go up in the
plant because of that stress,

environmental stress that is
placed on that plant. So all of

these things are tied together.
So yes, when we look at the

let's say regenerative
agricultural practice, like

Steve talked about, some of the
products that are being used are

more micro food. They enhance
that biological system, rather

than break that biological
system down, and then it's

better for the microbes, better
for nutrition availability,

better for plant health. So we
can start to see a reduction in

some of that. But as we talk
about this, a lot of this comes

down to building overall health
and that digestive system, and

once we have that function in as
designed, we see some of these

problems go away, as long as
we're not throwing things out

there that is making the problem
worse, like we talked about a

lot of times, that's
agricultural inputs, right?

And you mentioned biofilms.
Biofilms are very important.

It's this idea of microbes using
for bacteria, extracellular

polysaccharides. They're gluing
things together. Now there's

research showing that if we are
in environments that has high

levels of sodium, the plants
communicating with the microbes.

It's using actually volatile
organic compounds. The microbes

call it breath. It'll spit out
molecules that talk to the

plant, which upregulates genes
that allow the plant to move

more sodium down to the soil and
out, which then the microbes.

They see that as an issue. They
know it's an issue, so they're

going to bind that material.
They'll bind sodium inside of

their glue. So if you think
about that, it's the EPS is.

It's building that structure.
It's like putting a sleeping bag

on it protects you that then on
the larger scale, so we start

with micro aggregate formation
that happens with those bacteria

gluing together individual soil.
Soil collides clay particles on

the larger scale that we move up
to a rhizoth. The rhizoth is a

completely different environment
than the rest of the soil around

it's just like your house in the
winter. Now, the beauty of that

is the microbes using that
extracellular polysaccharide is

kind of insulation. They can
also accumulate some of those

heavy metals inside of that
material. They can help the

plant move that material
purposefully out. They can up

regulate protected genes. They
can encourage the plant to dump

those they can take those
materials themselves and lock it

up, bind it up. And as long as
those biofilms maintain their

structure, it's locked away it,
I kind of compare it to like

brick and mortar. It's the
mortar. It's what's holding

those stones together. So as
long as we're maintaining that

soil structure and we're not
encouraging its degradation,

we're helping binds in that
material away, so that that's

another side of the heavy metal
thing is, and that's, I think,

part of why we see less uptake
in those plants that are

associated with a healthy
digestive system. Microbes are

helping protect the plant.

Really incredible, honestly,
like, and I feel like, as this

becomes more of a normalized
conversation out there, it just

is very hopeful to people to
think like, okay, we can really,

we can really do a lot to impact
our food system and our in our

health, human health, but also
our health is like part of the

biological ecosystem, ecosystem
health and and it's really a

matter of working with what we
already have and just optimizing

nature and having a more
symbiotic relationship with

nature, rather than this control
conquest mindset of like We must

control nature. You know, we
must control microbes. It's

like, Guys, we're never gonna
win. Like, there's more

microbial cells in my body than
there are my own cells. So,

like, we can never win in that
game, significant odds.

Side of that. I mean, there's
what, 30,000 human genes. Genes.

There's a million microbial
genes. So looking at the cell

side, looking at the gene side,
oh, it's, it's even crazier,

looking at that side of things.
It's just,

you know, you had talked earlier
about antibiotics, and they have

a use. They have a function.
When we need antibiotics are

it's a wonderful tool. They
exist, yeah, you know, I

sometimes when we talk about
overall plant health as we go

down this regenerative path, is
there a time where you may need

a fungicide or a insecticide or
a herbicide in order to as we

build that soil health, you need
to band aid. Every once in a

while, you cut your thumb to get
to get to where we want to be,

you know. And so, yes, do those
two tools have a place in

agriculture? Absolutely, but we
have to understand those tools

and how they affect that
biological community, just like

how an antibiotic affects human
health, you know, a lot of times

you go and now, and they you
take an antibiotic, the first

thing they do is, when you're
off the antibiotic, they say,

eat yogurt, make probiotics, get
that digestive we need to do the

same thing in the soil
environment. You know, Bruce

used to say all of the
fungicides and pesticides and

insecticides in the world have
not reduced insect disease or

weeds. They still exist. And
that's where Bruce's work, you

know, originally came from, is
we're just creating healthier

ones. So let's step away from
that, use that tool when needed.

But let's go to that biological
world in order to get that to

function. I mean, I mean, that's
really when you start to talk

about binding up things that
doesn't want. You know, we see

all the time. When you get on
this regenerative program, and

you go down this biological
Avenue, and you change that

microbial profile within that
soil environment to a you're not

changing in a negative way.
You're changing it in a positive

way based off habitat, habitat
that can support them. You start

to see weed pressure change. It
doesn't mean you get away from

weeds, it just it starts to
change

environment dictates expression
is something that we've been

saying very long time, and
that's associated with weed

pressure, as well as insect and
disease. Insects and disease are

supposed to be there.
Saprophytic fungi are in our

environment, in our soil, to
break down our material. If we

didn't have them, we'd have a
building. The problem is, when

our plants are viewed by nature
as the saprophytic fungi as dead

or dying tissue, it's going to
start eating of that. We see

blossom end rot. We see early
blight, we see late blight.

Those are there as a clean up
through. It's not an accident.

Those are nutritionally devoid.
You can look at Shibo so healthy

crops, and he was looking at
specific foods and how the

digestive system of those
organisms work. Dr Callahan and

Dijkstra that has followed him,
and how these insects are

communicating and targeting in
on unhealthy things. It's not an

accident that we have these
we're creating the environment

that's asking them to be there.
And it's it's the same with

weeds. We see ships and weed
pressures and weed species as we

change that environment, we will
see problems that were severe in

the farm as we start to switch.
And we like to describe it as

you know, succession is
increasing complexity of our

soils, increasing complexity
environment. We don't have those

same pressures, we don't have
those same problems. We have new

problems. We have different
problems, but we're creating an

environment that is more complex
and therefore also more

resilient and less likely to
have a single stressor

completely wipe it out. I mean
bananas. We're losing another

variety of bananas.

And when we talk about that,
when we look at weed pressure,

you know, there's a great book
out when weeds talk, yeah,

because it directly correlates

if

you have a specific weed.
Listen, why it? Yeah, we try and

kill it. But that weed is there
to fix that soil environment, to

accumulate, for an example,
calcium, where we have calcium

tied up in that soil. But roux
used to talk about, not only was

it there to get that nutrition,
but it's also to repair your

soil biologically, because there
are specific biological

communities put out enzymes or
aminic acids that help break

that bond, which makes that
calcium, phosphorus, calcium,

iron, whatever that might be
available to the plant. So not

only are those there to repair
the soil, a lot of times we go

in and wipe them out because we
see them as bad, and that's

where we go into that succession
of they're there for a reason.

So if we heal our soil, suddenly
this weeds no longer there.

We've went to the next level of
a different

that's not a bad thing. No,
it's, it's, it's showing

progress, and that's what we
want to see. We want to see

progress with our soils.
Progress. Dog press, we don't

want to be backsliding. No, it's

so true, especially with
antibiotic resistant bacteriums.

Just like in the fields, we have
these herbicide resistant weeds.

I mean, we're in the era of,
like, the pushback from nature,

where they're like, You know
what? We have complex genetics.

We can outsmart this. And no
matter what you throw at us,

we're going to come back
stronger. And to me, that is

like the ultimate wake up call
to go, Okay, this is not working

the way that we thought in the
long term. Like, where do we

start, on a much smaller level,
to just create an environment

that's not as beneficial for
that weed? I work with a lot of

farmers right now up in northern
Montana, and a lot of them are

legacy organic, and boy, their
weed pressure from Canadian

thistle and whatnot, is just
really, really tough. And so

I've been trying to think like,
you know, as somebody who's

trying to do some value chain
creation at a community level,

you know, we need to support
them with agronomy. We need to

support them with biological
amendments to really work on

that, so that way they're
succeeding. And it's been a real

wake up call to me to because
I'm so used to working with a

lot of regenerative farmers out
here in the Inland Northwest and

and it's a very different
system. And so, like, I would

love for you guys even to just
kind of talk about, like, say I

were to get you in contact with
one of these farmers in Montana

we're working with who's really
battling these Canadian

thistles. They've been organic
for a couple of decades, so a

lot of tillage, you know, to
help with Reed weed reduction.

Like, how would you guys work
with a farmer like that? Like,

how does that work? When, when I
call you up and go, hey guys

help.

We've got to touch a little bit
on leaf extract or SAP analysis,

not an indicator.

And that's what I was going to
say, is it all starts. We say

this all the time. Tests. Don't
guess. So we need to test our

soil. I mean, for example, in
human health, if you walked in

the doctor and he looks at and
he goes, Well, you know, I think

you need antibiotics and we need
to do surgery. No, they're gonna

do a blood test. They're gonna
look at that's what we have to

do in agriculture. We have to
pull a soil analysis. We have to

have a plant SAP analysis. We
have tools now, biomass, for

example, DNA sequence, seen
what, biology and what,

basically function is happening
within that soil environment. So

we utilize all these tools, and
then we look at crop, we look at

rotation, we look at tillage,
for an example, agricultural

practices, and then agricultural
inputs, and all of those things

is we kind of look at them
together, and then we start to

pick away at I call the low
hanging fruit. Okay, let's try

and do this different. This
different and this different,

because the reason your thistle
is there is because of organic

matter, maybe low compaction,
low calcium availability.

There's a direct correlation to
weed species and why they're

there. So then we take a look at
based off of, I mean, do we have

an excess? Do we have high mag
soil so we're buying enough

calcium, we don't have good
water penetrance? I mean, I

could go down eight different
ways of why is that there? But

once we start to identify some
of these things, we can now

apply tools that's available to
that organic farmer based off of

biological, based off of
nutrition, based off of

agricultural practices that
again, now thistle is no longer

there, but then we go into well,
what is the next thing? And

generally, the next weed variety
that he may have is not going to

be as detrimental to what he's
trying to do in agriculture.

Because when we say, talk about
primary succession, moving

forward, going from rock to, you
know, basically the rainforest

in agriculture, we're supposed
to continue to move forward in

soil health. We're moving
backwards. We're moving back to

rock based on soil health, we
need to just reverse that. And a

lot of it is comes down to what
we do. And so often I talk about

excesses cause a greater
deficiency or a greater problem

than a deficiency. So meaning,
if we have too much of one thing

in the soil environment, we
don't know that, and we add more

of that, we've created
efficiency of everything else

because of an excess. And so a
lot of

times, one more time, it's so
important, I think that this is

something that we get wrong so
often in so many parts of our

lives, not just in the field.

If you look at the law, minimum,
meaning your greatest limiting

factor is a deficiency. That's
true, but what I look at there

is that deficiency being caused
by an excess of something else

we have. Yeah, everything in
moderation. When we come to

human health, it doesn't mean
it's bad, as long as it's

utilized in moderation, and the
only way we know that is to

understand based off of our
soil. Soil and our plant and our

plant SAP analysis of what does
that plant need? And I guess to

explain that is, you can have a
soil analysis, and you can be

perfectly balanced on Calcium,
Potassium, Magnesium, Nitrogen,

they're all perfectly balanced
in the soil. And then you pull a

plant SAP analysis and the plant
SAP says, I'm not getting any

calcium. That's a gut problem.
It's a gut problem. It's a gut

resistive system. So now, what
biology can help him to help

make that calcium available, or
a phosphorus deficiency? What

can we utilize? What tools do we
have in our toolbox now to help

with that deficiency? Because if
we just have one test and we

don't have the other we never
know that we're expressing a

deficiency. So, you know, in a
lot of cases, if we look at our

soil and it says, Well, I'm
deficient on this mineral, and

so I dump a bunch of it out, but
the plants telling me, whoa,

whoa, I have way too much of
this. Stop doing that. Those are

the those. Those are the
excesses that create the

deficiencies now suddenly go
ahead. Well,

I just didn't say the manganese
example Colorado, where we've

seen a soil we start off with
plants that are expressing a

deficiency. We assume it's one
type of deficiency. It looks

like it's specific deficiency.
We didn't know. We had a pretty

strong idea of what it was going
to be, but until we did that

analysis, we didn't know for
sure. So it looked like an iron

deficiency. In reality, it was a
manganese deficiency. We then

look at the soil, and the
manganese levels in our soil

were extremely low. So the first
approach is, well, let's dump a

whole bunch on it. It didn't do
much. It wasn't until we really

started heavily applying biology
and bio stimulants we had to get

that digestive system
functioning. As soon as we did

that those deficiencies
disappeared. And this is after.

We're not going to name names,
but some of the local Extension

agents have come out, looked at
the trees and said they're done.

You can't fix it once this
problem is there. It's done. Two

years later, they're healthy.
They're happy. It we have the

capacity to change these systems
in a relatively short time

frame. Some of that depends on
the location you're at, your

environmental conditions,
exactly. I mean our Pacific

Northwest Area, with some of our
growers that get five or six

inches of rain, that's going to
be a different time scale of

healing the soil than if we go
to the Midwest, where we've got

3040, inches in timely manner.
They get it all summer. It's got

to be focused on, what do you
have in your area, keeping it

local. I mean, keeping it local
on food, but also keeping it

local on how that food is
generated matters. Yeah,

that's a super important point.
Is that not all systems are

created equal, and it's
interesting talking to folks

from other parts of the world,
and they're like, Wait, some of

the farmers you work with get
seven inches of rain a year. And

I'm like, Yes, and, you know,
and then they start to

understand, like, what they're
up against when it comes to soil

health. Because with that desert
condition that, you know, it's

almost like a crypto biotic
crust scenario, you know, where

it's like, it's very delicate
because it's so dry and it's

under so much stress from UV for
so many days of sun in the

summer and winter as well.

And when we basically think
about biology, needs the same

thing we need. It needs food,
water, oxygen, shell. It needs

all those

living so it's alive.

And yeah, that's what we have to
look at when we think of our

soil is a living system. And,
you know, I, yeah, I A lot of

times I look at you had
mentioned you basically light

damaging those so now they're in
their home, and Dr Hatfield

gives an example of a hurricane
just comes through. A tornado

comes through and wipes out your
home. Now you're exposed to

everything in that environment.
You're very vulnerable, and

that's what happens with some of
the agricultural practices that

we do, is we go in and we till
that soil, and we've just

disrupted their environment that
they tried to create as talk the

rhizomes, the things they
created to protect themselves

and we destroy them, is that
bad? Maybe not, as long as we

understand that tillage
sometimes has to be used in

agriculture. I give the example,
we always say, Well, no, tills

the best, don't disrupt the
soil. How do you get peanuts?

How do you get potatoes? How do
you get carrots out of the

ground without disrupting the
so, I mean, I guess we create a

potato tree.

We talked about it. Yeah, it's
got to be a challenge.

That would be really
fascinating. Yeah, yeah. And

what's interesting is, like, I
feel like it's so easy to get so

fixated on one practice,
philosophy or theology, really,

and and then having Dr Christine
Jones here last summer speaking

to a lot of our farmers and her
feelings of. About the risk

versus benefits equation, not
having to do with tillage versus

herbicide use. And I know that
it really fundamentally changed

the way a lot of folks are
thinking about this, not just in

our region, but, you know, even
like, you know, talking to John

and Rick Clark and those guys,
because they also had some time

with her this summer as well.
And it was foundationally a

shift in thinking, but if we
always bring it back to risk

versus benefits equation context
which is local and just being

reasonable and using that kind
of minimalizing mentality of

like, more is not always better.
It's pretty incredible where we

can land,

sometimes applying iron, and
that doesn't mean nutrition

iron, applying equipment, iron
to your soil sometimes is one of

the greatest benefits you can
receive, even in a no till

environment. So we can't, as you
say, we can't go just this is

the only way we can do it. And I
have growers in Canada that were

no till they were having
significant problems. They went

in and ripped their soil. They
injected biology at eight inches

and two inches, because eight
inches was where their action

layer was in order to break that
up to get that function back in.

And it was a huge shift for them
based off of soil health and

nutrient availability. I mean,
it was game changing gas

exchange. I

mean, soil has to breathe. The
microbes have to breathe. 1/32

of an inch of crust, all
respiration shuts down. So if

you see a soil that has crust,
it's not breathing. If we have a

bare soil in the summer, and
it's getting above 100 110

degrees, 120 130 degrees, at
around 103 105 protein salads

denature. They fall apart. So
those systems are now in a heat

shock environment. It takes
extra energy. They have to

protect themselves. They shut
down. So we're losing diversity.

We've got to think about this.
We're carbon farmers, and we've

got to be focusing on, how can
we maximize our carbon as a

resource, as a protective tool?
And that goes right into, you

know, climate resiliency. We're
the more carbon we can put in

soil, the more benefit we can
see associated with that, the

better we can have our plants,
photosynthesize, create those

exudates, and like you're
mentioning, 30% of all that

sugar right down and out, and
that's to create that

environment. And we're finding
that it's called the microbial

carbon pump, where these
microbes are purposely taking

that material, and they're
creating humus. They're creating

soil. And that's what we need to
have happen, because, like

Dennis was saying, that's how we
create that structure. That's

how we create the homes and the
houses, and that's the only way

we're going to have this soil
maintain the little bit of

moisture we get in our area, or
the lots of moisture that we get

in other areas. Having those
open floor spaces allows for

better infiltration, allows for
better storage capacity, as well

as better gas exchange. It's,
it's not one thing, it's all of

these things that come together
approach.

And I think that's just what I
love so much about the way you

guys approach your work. And you
know, tanio is a is a company in

general. So, you know, as we
wrap this up. I mean, I love

talking to the two. We could do
this all day long, but we are

going, we'll just have to do a
part two, and we'll unpack some

more of this. But how can people
get in touch with you? I know

people are going to listen to
this. They're going to want to

follow your your work. Maybe
they're a farmer, and they're

like, Hey, how can you guys help
me? What? Where would you tell

people to go to to get in touch
with you.

Best thing to do, I guess, would
go, yeah, info@cameo.com

would be the best thing. It's a
good email. Or just go to our

website, check us out. Yeah,
we're not very good at plugging

or we never talk about products.
Plug

your plug yourself. Because I
guarantee it, somebody just

listened to this, and it may be
somebody who's been, you know,

driving equipment all day long,
and they're a farmer, and

they're like, oh my gosh, this
is what I've been looking for.

So where do they go to find you?
What is that website?

T, A, I, N, i, o.com, yep, that
is easy, awesome.

Or email. It's at
info@tanio.com, that would be

the best thing. And then, you
know, Jenny in our office,

whoever gets that information,
will make sure Steve and I get

it. You know, I always laugh,
because I'm never in the office.

I'm always out, you know,
talking to growers at shows,

doing those types of things. So
they will make sure we get the

information, and we, you know,
anybody that wants more

information on this, that's part
of what we do. Also, as Steve

talked about, is we want to
share basically Bruce's, what I

would say, vision of what he
had, of bait, you know, better

food, better agriculture, better
environment, all of. Those types

of things. That's why pineal was
originally developed, and that's

what we want to put forward. So
if anybody has questions, we be

more than happy to answer them
based off of, I guess, soil

health. Yeah, I don't have the
winning Powerball numbers, but I

can talk soil Well,

I think we're coming pretty darn
close here. So thanks so much

you guys for joining, and it's
been really fun. And I really, I

bet if Bruce could listen to
this podcast, he'd be pretty

darn proud. So let's, let's just
keep growing this movement

together, and it's a pleasure to
work with both of you. Thanks

for joining, and for you out
there listening right now. If

you like this, please share it
with your friends, and also, if

you're listening on edible
podcasts, you can leave a

review. So we're always looking
to grow our audience and get

this message out in front of
more people, so that way we

really can get behind changing
to our world and making it a

better one for our kids and
grandkids and future

generations. So thanks so much
for listening, and have a great

day. Thanks, Johnny.

Thanks, John,

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