Regenerative by Design

Joanne, hello, everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by

design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,

climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell

Moore, join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of

individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our

food system with both human
health and the health of our

planet. Greetings everybody, and
thank you so much for joining me

on the regenerative by design
Podcast. Today. We have Joanna

Kane Potaka joining us, of
course, to talk about millets.

Because everybody knows that I
am super passionate about

millets. And if you've ever
followed my work out in the wide

open world, you know that I do
spend a lot of energy

enthusiastically cheerleading
for such an incredible

underutilized crops such as
millet plural. So welcome,

Joanna. I'm so excited to talk
to you today.

Thanks, Joni. And you know, I
really want to say it's

absolutely fantastic how you're
taking a personal initiative to

really spread the word on
regenerative agriculture and

crops like like millet, which
are paradoxically actually you

you mentioned underutilized, but
it was the ancient grain. Now

it's forgotten and future food,
right?

It's funny how all things, all
do become new again. And it's

you know that again, it's part
of that regenerative

transformation that is coming
our way in food systems, where

we start to look to the past for
things that worked for millennia

and that we've conveniently just
eliminated from our modern food

systems, to the detriment of our
health and to the detriment of

our soils and and planets as
well. So Joanna, to get started,

because you have such a
fascinating background, and over

the years, it's just been so
much fun learning about your

work, learning about your past
work. Could you tell our

audience a little bit about
where you came from and what

you've done and how you came to
be where you are today?

I to do that very quickly. Well,
actually, I started in research

as a scientist, an economist and
market research, but I always

had this driving, first to work
overseas, and I got two

opportunities at the same time.
One was working commercial

marketing and sort of food
industry in Australia, and the

other was to work overseas for
nonprofits. And I must admit, I

chose to work overseas for
nonprofits mainly because I

wanted to work overseas. But in
the meantime, I absolutely fell

in love with the work of
nonprofits and this whole

Agriculture and Food space,
which is just so critical and

has become even bigger over
time, with the with climate

change and much more awareness
around like you say, the

regenerative agriculture, the
need for diversity, the

challenges that we have with
water and soil. So, yeah, I just

fell in love with that, and then
I guess I've been really

privileged to work in so many
countries on so many of these

topics, and then I had in as
part of that student I had nine

years in India, and that's where
I'd never heard of millets

before, and that's where I first
heard about them and and really,

just started my very first
research on them, and and came

to realize, Wow, this is a gold
field that is wasn't brought up

on global attention. There were
a number of people in

organizations pushing it, but it
was really, really under, under,

mis, under understood, yeah, the
value of it. And so then I

became converted, and big
advocate for, yeah, yeah,

it's fantastic. Now, you know,
you've, you've really balanced

that line between the economics,
the education, the nutrition

components. And you know, with
some of your more recent work,

you were really involved with
initiatives to raise awareness

around the role of crops like
millet and others for their for

the nutritional impact. I find
that work to be really great. I

love that it involved the word
smart and thinking through food

choices, not only through the
lens of nutrition, but also for

being climate smart. I'd love to
like for you to share a little

bit about that with our audience
as well.

Well, I'm a huge believer in
really taking more what I call a

triple bottom line, actually, in
the food system. So if you look

at the triple bottom line that a
company, a commercial company,

might take, and if you adapt
that for the food system,

basically what you get the
profit. The profit is a focus on

how the farmers, and especially
as I've worked in nonprofits,

especially the smallholder
farmers, how it's viable for

them. I. Um, but then the planet
is is in the food systems. It's

about climate change, and it's
about the natural resource

management, the soil, the water,
the biodiversity, and then that

people's side is about healthy,
nutritious food, and it's about

inclusion as well, because if
you're not bringing everyone

along in that solution, you're
not going to get to where you

need to go. But and it's about
making sure we have solutions

that take all that into account.
So that whole problem, which

makes it so much more complex,
but we work in our silos of

disciplines, we're not going to
get the best solution. We're not

going to understand the trade
offs. Now, you're not always

going to achieve everything all
at once, but you process and

understand how you what you can
do about that and how that

impacts the way you move
forward. Yeah, and I love that

you've, you know, really given a
lot of attention to the role of

staples. I feel like Staples
have long been overlooked. You

know, in here in the United
States, where I'm based, like we

get these fad diets, and they're
often about a superfood

ingredient or a radical
reduction of some entire food

group, but rarely do we really
have a focus on the quality and

diversity of our staples, like
the things that drive like 50%

of the average person's caloric
intake. And you know, in your

work with a and, and for those
of you who are listening, that's

the international Crops Research
Institute for the semi arid

tropics, there's a huge focus on
these staple crops, staple

grains, and really what it means
to re evaluate the nutritional

integrity of the things that
represent the lion's share of

our calories. And you know, and
I think that that led a lot to

that smart food initiative as
well. I just feel like it's

something that's often
overlooked in contemporary

culture, maybe we just take it,
take it for granted, like, you

know, in a place like the United
States, where most of us have

ample access to calories, it's
not it's usually a challenge of

how to eliminate staple foods
because, but then, in so much of

the world where there is food
scarcity and every calorie

counts, Things like millets,
like, really can make a huge

difference when you're looking
at mass population,

micronutrient deficiencies and
things like that. I would love

to have you just share some of
the things that you experienced

in that work.

Well, okay, so I am a big
believer in impacting the

staples. Actually, I recently
started a movement called

Smarter staples. So now the
reason for focusing on staples

is because, if you want to have
big impact and quickly, then you

need to do that through staples.
But, and there's two, two

dimensions to that that I took.
One is making our current

staples smarter and diversifying
our staples with small foods

like millet, and you need to do
to do both. And yeah, so the

focus on staples is only because
that's how you can have big

impact, and especially across
Asia and Africa, where, as you

sort of mentioned, staples are
huge part of the diet there. And

even as diets are changing,
staples are still really

significant part of the diet,
right? So particularly important

and can have very big impact,
and about the making our current

staples smarter. So it's about
that, that triple bottom line,

again, how you make them better
for the farmer, for you, the

consumer and and for the planet,
and then with diversifying the

staples. Well, that's where I
work with millets, because I I

termed what I called a food
system divide, and this is what

was the biggest challenge for
diversifying our staples, just

like you have an education
divide or a digital divide. So

what happened with the staples
is there was a huge emphasis on

investment and attention to just
a very, very small diversity of

guides. And of course, what I
call the Big Three, the wheat,

maize and race, received most of
the attention. It was the

research. It was the government
policy support, private

industry, investment, product
development, even the

development aid, the vast
majority went to the big three.

Now, when you invest in
something, you develop it, and

it does well, and the better
something does, the more it

attracts further investment, and
then it does and so on. So of

course, they have really well
developed value chains, really

well developed consumer
awareness and products, etc, and

they're on big scale. So when we
looked at how can we diversify

the staples, we realized that,
okay, we really need to focus on

just one or two staples at a
time and try to bring them back.

Into mainstream. Because if you
tried to do it with 50 different

statements, overwhelming, yeah,
and it's hard enough, and

there's, like you said, the
infrastructure gap is

significant. And so to, you
know, approach a value chain and

suddenly say, okay, not only do
we need to have more access to

like, the proper dehulling or
specialized

processing capacities, you know,
like one or two at a time or

clusters that need the similar
kind of access to value chain

processing makes a lot more
sense. It's just a lot more

doable, especially in areas that
don't have a lot of access to

capital. I mean, even here in
the US, our processing sector is

grossly undercapitalized, and
USDA recognized that recently

and set aside investment
specifically to really take on

that messy middle like, where
are the gaps. And the gaps that

were revealed were we had very
limited access to processing of

small cereals and specialty
crops, very limited processing

for things that need, like
specialized segregation, like

organic, allergen free, etc, and
also just in certain areas that

just were underrepresented, as
far as having access to

processing in their geographical
areas. So I'm grateful to the

USDA for responding to that here
in the United States, but I know

that that's something that is
experienced globally, because

we've really lost a lot of small
scale processing in the last 50

years, and I know you've seen
that firsthand in other

countries as well.

Yeah, well, I did a lot of work
with SMEs and these sort of

startup processing companies in
Millet and the reason was that

what we saw with the millets is,
and this is back a while ago

now, the very first gap was
driving the awareness and the

demand side. We really saw that
you needed to do that with

modern products and make it more
available and accessible on the

market. And of course, the SMEs,
like yourself, are really the

pioneers. I have so so much
regard, high regard, to the

really tough challenge. And I
always used to say, these SMEs

struggle just as much as the
farmers struggle. It's really

100%

Yeah, it is really tough, yeah,
and marketing is so such a huge

part of that, and you've spent a
lot of your life in that

marketing communication role,
and you know, honestly, no like,

you can have something that is
the most incredible superfood,

Prop, economical value chains
everything, and it will still

fall flat without the right
access to marketing and

communication channels. And what
have you found to be effective

in raising awareness for
underutilized crops like

millets?

Okay, there's no magic bullet.
Of course, you and you know

yourself, you just keep plodding
away. But you Yeah, so will the

approach that I took with the
smart food sort of global

movement make turning it into a
global movement, turning it into

something that could be owned by
others, it wasn't just owned by

the organization that I worked
for, and that's why we branded

it separately, and we created a
ambassador program with it, a

council of from people
organizations across Africa and

Asia. We then use that to drive
the message. But the aim, for me

was because we couldn't
influence consumers. We weren't

that sort of organization, or
you'd need a huge budget if

you're talking consumers. Yeah,
aim was to influence everyone

along that value chain and
influencers, so whether all the

way through to the farmers, the
food processors, the

researchers, the development
agencies, the NGOs, making

everybody aware of the value of
millets and the potential. And

now we have to be careful,
because we were all talking

about potential back then, and
we ran a lot of really, really

fun activities as well, like we
did a reality TV show in Kenya

that we ran where with sort of
celebrities and chefs, and it

attacked a lot of young people,
and They had to cook with

millets and legumes and products
I've never cooked with before.

And even the judges judging it
had never cooked with a lot of

these products before. It was
really fun. And we've got some

countries to start their own
annual millet fair. We did. And

of course, the the ultimate in
the end, which I think was a

good turning point for
awareness. It wasn't turning

point for the whole industry.
Was we initiated getting that

international year of millet
going. So it got a minister of

agriculture from India come with
us. We went to FAO. We did all

the rounds. Because when you've
got a minister, all the doors

open and. Ah, right. And we've
tried to find out, how do you

run an international How do you
get an international year

approved? Got all the inside
sort of help on how to do it.

And then we had to put through
the the recommendation through

the Indian government. And then
we had so many people helping,

so many people that really got
excited by this. As you know,

the Indian government would just
amazing. I've never seen an

international year with such
strong support from the

government right up to the Prime
Minister. I mean, India was

edible. It would be
unbelievable. Yeah,

that's incredible. I think so
too. Yeah, it is a case study,

and you know, I was watching it
from afar, you know, unfold, and

just seeing this massive
mobilization that was well

executed because it seemed to
hit so many different verticals

that are needed to be activated
simultaneously to raise

awareness. And then, lo and
behold, here we are not quite a

year after the UN year of
millets has, you know, finished,

and we have McDonald's launching
a millet based bun at Indian

McDonald's, which I'm not the
biggest fan of McDonald's, and

I'm and I not, you know,
whatever, to each their own, but

it's not a place that I choose
to eat. But I was absolutely

flabbergasted when I saw the
promotional materials come out

around the millet hamburger bun.
And I thought, this is, this is

like proof that that was so well
executed that we even got the

attention of a massive
multinational, you know, like,

like, top of the pile entity
like McDonald's. I mean, when it

comes to large international
entities, I mean, it's about as

big as it gets, and that they
are responding and taking

action, you know, we'll see how
it goes as far as consumer

adoption, but the fact that they
even did that at all, I just

found I was so tickled when I
saw that. I couldn't believe it.

Yeah,

no, I was really impressed. And
you've got to think, so, what's

behind that? You know, just the
strong Indian government support

for millets right up to the
Prime Minister, they made a

difference in the Indian
government, the cftri, iimr, all

the big research organizations
in India would have really been

behind that as well. It's a
really good example how advocacy

has led to some big change.
Yeah, yeah. And, you know,

I agree, yeah. And in speaking
with innovators in India and

talking to some of the women led
initiatives that they've created

brands that are doing all kinds
of product innovation. And as

someone who's been here doing
Milla innovation, I was a little

jealous when I learned about the
resources that were available

like to Milla innovators, as far
as loans to create new products

and to get product design,
packaging, r, d to the finish

line, and processing, microscale
processing, we definitely don't

have anything like that here.
It's been minimal support, and I

think that that's really helped
ignite a grassroots movement

that allows them to actually get
things like millets into

popularized products like
crackers and cookies and you

name it. I mean, I was blown
away at the degree of like

diversity in the different food
innovations that are coming out

of India, and with all of the
millets. And,

you know, India definitely is a
leader now in that sort of

startup space, being one of the
pillars there. Actually, April

said it was probably 15 or more
years ago, started up the very

first food incubator in India.
And then the Indian government

got excited by that, and so they
asked ikrasat to help them set

up, I think they set up about 13
or more around India. And of

course, it's just blossomed
after that. India really got the

government really got behind
understanding how important

startups and SMEs are. But what
I what I found is, okay, there's

fantastic support now for
someone to start up, the

challenge becomes to scale, and
I've seen so many of these SMEs

really struggle, and I don't
think we have the right support

mechanisms in place for scaling.
And I don't leave always just

leave SMEs alone. Sure, if they
get the big investment, they can

scale, but it's always reliant
on that huge investment, and

it's a really challenging time
in between. And I think,

absolutely, I think there's
solutions of doing more in what

I call collective marketing. So
you bring it together, you have

umbrella brand, umbrella to
criteria that you've got to be

part of. It's almost like you
certification to it, to being

part of that. So it's not just
random products.

Yeah. Right? There's a cohesive
purpose. Yeah,

so I really think that's a way
of the future to support more

SMEs.

I agree, especially when you're
creating a category essentially

around like a rediscovered
ingredient or something that is

new and different. Because we
know that if one brand comes in

and tries to champion like a
brand new ingredient. That's a

really tough road. It's
expensive, your tip of the

spear. People can be
distrustful, but if suddenly

they see it from five different
entities at the same time,

they're like, Wait a minute.
Maybe this is a thing. Maybe we

should try this. Maybe we should
be a little more receptive to

the marketing materials. And so
I think that aggregative

approach is really important for
building long term acceptance

and and shift in cultural norms
that adopt these underutilized

or opportunity crops.

And if you use a parallel, even
though there's quite a few

differences in India, they've
been very successful with pharma

producer organizations. There's
no branding to that. It's just

aggregation. But if you could do
something with SMEs, and it's

bringing them together, but
there is branding. They have

their individual brand, but you
have the this umbrella brand,

and and then you do the
collective marketing, because

individually, they can't afford
the level of marketing that's

needed, right,

right? Yeah, marketing isn't, is
an extremely big expense. And,

you know, there's a, there's,
there's grassroots marketing

that can be really effective,
but marketing strategy is a

science and an art, both. And I
have to say, you know, I've

learned the hard way of like,
how hard it is to try to grow

something without access to
quality marketing, and without

access to the capital, to higher
quality marketing. It's like

you're just banging your head
against a wall all day long

because you have to just kind of
cobble things together and, you

know, hope for the best, and
then you're just, it's like,

literally based on luck, not on
science, and not setting

yourself up for success. And,
you know, a lot of a lot of

people, especially innovators
and under, you know,

underrepresented groups,
socially and racially, but also

in underrepresented commodities.
It's like a double whammy, you

know, you're just, it's like
people are scared to invest the

money to drive discovery of
something new. You know,

talking marketing, the other
area I see that's challenging

the SMEs, is the product
development side. Now the big

companies have a team of good
technologies, yeah, and I've

found it's variable product,
millet products on the market,

and it's really, really hard to
get it right, and that's really

going to make the difference to
the industry taking off on it.

And at the end of the day,
people are just going to like

the product. They have to want
to eat it. And actually, for the

bit of time that I worked in the
rice industry, that was

something that really hit home
to me. When I'm in Asia and

people just want to eat rice. It
doesn't feel like a meal if they

don't have rice, they love rice,
and they always say rice is

live. They just want to eat it.
And I always used to think,

okay, how can we get there with
millet that they're not saying

I'm going to eat it because I
have a health problem, or

because I have diabetes, or
because I want to lose weight,

or because of any other reason.
I'm going to eat it because I

really, really want to eat it. I
love enjoying it, like I've been

creating.

I love a whole cooked sorghum,
and I love eating it. And, like,

honestly, like, I I haven't had
it. I've been really busy the

last few days and working very
long hours, like, for the last,

well, for the last few years,
but like, especially, like, the

last week, um, and I was like,
Man, I'm actually craving it.

Like, There's something I'm
craving in that, and that's a

cool thing. And my kids now,
even, like, my daughter's in

college, and she's like, Mom,
I'm just actually craving, like,

just plain cooked sorghum with,
like, you know, like a home

cooked meal. And I was like,
Okay, that's interesting,

because, you know, we've been
eating that in our family for

years, and kids come over that
have never had it, and they're

like, What is this? And it takes
them some time to warm up to it,

but then once you do, suddenly,
you crave it. It becomes part of

that fabric. And I think also
your gut microbiome, it starts

to crave those things as well,
because it does create a shift

in in all of those things. And,
you know, honestly, in in trying

to figure out what those early
little catch points are for

people like you said, you know,
eating for diabetes or eating

for health like I feel like the
nutritional story that's

associated with millets is
probably the best way to lead,

at least in the United States
and in these markets, to try to

get people to step out of their
comfort zone and try millet for

the first

time. What do you think? Yeah,
no, I absolutely agree it would

be crazy not to leverage that
amazing advantage that it has,

but you can't do it without a
great delicious, yeah, but it

gives it a competitive
advantage. And of course, there

is less known. Of course, there
are fewer studies done on

millets compared to other
products. So we were really

privileged to lead what I
believe is the world's largest

nutrition studies on millet,
including sorghum as well. So we

did, yeah, so we did systematic
reviews, meta analyzes, which is

basically studying the studies.
If you just do one more study,

you've just got another lot of
data, which is courses needed,

badly needed. But this was
saying, well, let's study

everything that's out there and
see what we can actually claim

and what you can't claim, and
where are the gaps. And so we

had, we had a big team globally.
So I've got a shout out, because

I can't claim it myself. We had
a lead nutritionist, Dr Anita.

We had the Indian National
Institute of nutrition with us.

We had Ian Gibbons, who was from
Reading University in the UK. We

had a medical doctor on the team
who was also a pediatrician, Raj

pandari. We had a statistician
from Japan. We had a couple of

other nutritionists, Rosie from
from Africa, and we had sweater,

who'd been UNICEF, and others.
So we had a really amazing which

is important to have, that
diversity really

is. I mean, it's like a
celebrity team in the scheme of

things, when it comes to like
global nutrition expertise,

like, those are well known names
in in that community, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, no. And we were
really lucky. And actually a lot

of these people put their own
time voluntarily into this,

because we all believed in it.
We got some funding, thankfully,

to the Odisha government in
India. And he said, Okay, let's

get this done and finished. And
Marie, who's like an Asian

network supported us through it,
so we had a fantastic team. So

all these systematic reviews, so
we looked at diabetes that

actually had the largest number
of studies, and it did show that

consuming millet did reduce the
risk of type two diabetes, and

it did reduce the blood glucose
levels. So that was fantastic

news, and it definitely is one
of the big drivers why some

people move to millet.

I mean, especially in the day
and age where the vast majority

of adults are at risk of
developing or have already

developed type two diabetes
everywhere in the world. Like,

it's a, it's a thing.

It's huge. And every region in
the world is increasing with the

it

is, yeah, it's a it's becoming
evident that it's very few

populations are immune. And when
I, when you first sent me the

meta analysis, like I had, I had
read a few of the studies that

were listed in there and but
always in isolation, and so I

was that's partly what got me
excited about millets in the

first place, when I was working
in the ICU, like, you know, this

is intensive care unit. A lot of
people are there for

complications of diabetes. And I
was a diabetic educator, and I

thought, Why in the world are we
not recommending this as a

replacement staple to our
patients that are managing a,

you know, a diabe, a diabetic
friendly diet, and managing

their condition? And it's what
led me to it. So when I saw that

you guys had taken a large body
of that and indeed, able to

validate that it wasn't just a
one off study, it was literally

consistent. And I think that
that is so important, and we

need to talk about that more.
I've been I've need to

evangelize it more too, but from
a brand positioning, you had to

be really careful, because if
you're sharing information about

something having, you know,
effect on something like

diabetes, you can get in a lot
of trouble in the United States,

like, you know, like, it's
almost like you need to have it,

like, two steps removed, so that
way you're not making false

claims, right? Yeah, but I will
say, I mean, there's lots more

things that we looked at, not
just diabetes, but for diabetes,

and for all of them, we
definitely need more studies

at the length of other foods and
the variations, like, how is it

going to impact different ethnic
groups, different types of

millets, the different varieties
of millets. I mean, no, no.

Study started to go down to the
variety of millet. And one thing

that we did identify, and we did
a whole study on it, is how much

the nutrition value of millets
vary based on just the variety,

not just the type. So a type of
millet is proto millet, dull

millet, etc, but then within
that you've got lots of

varieties. Yeah, and so what we
did is actually we, as part of

all these studies, we then also
put together a nutrition table

for millet, but showing the
variation. So we collected as

many different varieties from
different countries in the

world, and looked at the
nutrition levels, and then sort

of created a range. So we don't
think we should use any of these

other nutrition tables that
exist, where they put one one

piece of data. They say, this is
how much iron millet. You cannot

do that, and it varies, as you
know, even how you grow it. It

varies. Again, we couldn't go to
that diff in our studies, but

that's where more and more
studies are needed.

I agree 100% and it's so
interesting now in our work with

the Montana project that I'm
involved in, it's a USDA Organic

markets development grant, and
we're developing a pro Sam

millet program there. And you
know, my goal is that it will

become like a culinary breeding
program where we're selecting

and identifying for the first
time in North America, what

varieties of millet actually
perform best for culinary

application and have the best
nutrient profile. You know, for

for our desired markets, it's
literally like the wild west out

there, like, you know, you've,
you've uncovered some materials,

Dr Deepak Santra in University
of Nebraska, Lincoln has done

some, some preliminary
evaluation there as well, just

looking at the differences. But
it's really still the Wild West,

and I think that that is one of
the reasons why it's had a lot

of trouble with adoption in
mainstream food systems and

manufacturing just there, the
flavor profiles are all over the

place, the performance profiles
are all over the place. And so

we're really excited that we'll
be one of the very first

programs here in North America
that's like really looking at

nutrition and culinary
performance, in addition to all

the awesome things that proso
millet, this is a proso millet

project brings to the table
like, as far as drought

resiliency and playing a role in
organic crop rotations in the

regions that we've targeted,

it's like a science. It is. I'm
really pleased to hear that

because, yeah, the industry, the
millet industry, is very

immature in that regard, wheat.
I mean, every big company will

know exactly which variety, if
they're making which master or

which bread or everything.
Whereas we don't have any of

that in millet, we're so far
behind in the investment in

research, which actually was a
key part behind when I was

trying to drive demand, it was
about also getting more research

funding into that, because we
can't develop the industry

without that. And even if you
look at the gene banks, I mean,

there is a gold mine there still
that is not explored for the

military. Profile, you can go
and what's really there. It's so

funny, and which is exciting.
It's only gotten very blossom

and get more amazing, amazing
things come out.

I agree. And, you know, and then
you start thinking about the,

you know, sophistication in the
market. And we're now, you know,

we are having this sudden trend
in really paying attention in

the US markets, at least, you
know, with the nutrient density

conversations like, Can we, can
we start having medically

tailored meals that really can
produce the effects that we want

from a medical evaluation
standpoint, and then create

systems that deliver consistent
meals to people on, you know, so

that it's a kind of a more
controlled environment. And this

is where I think millets will
eventually really hit their

stride in North America. But
it's been, it's been very, very

difficult. I mean, I've spent
eight years trying to build

markets for millets. And, you
know, recently, kind of, we

narrowed our focus to what it
seemed like the industry was

open to discussing, but I think
that we've just been too early.

So it's great that we have the
opportunity now to back up a

little bit and focus on that
germplasm, agronomy, farming

system and end use case from a
nutritional standpoint or

culinary application standpoint.
And I'm really enjoying it like

it's actually a lot of fun.

Actually, the good news is, even
though millets are further

behind from those big staples,
with the research level, we can

leapfrog a bit, because there's
so much new technology, like, if

you can use the eye for the
better faster, sort of rolling

through the gene banks, all the
new gene editing, the speed

breeding, all the genomics, all
the work that you can do that

will make the breeding so much
faster. We do have the advantage

of taking being able to use that
to go a little faster than

others, 100%

and again. Think that that's why
having more collaborative

process is also super important.
Because, you know, you look at

farming in the far north or far
south, and it's seasonal, you

get one shot a year to figure it
out. But then if you have

breeding programs, and you're
working with people on, you

know, both sides of the planet,
and then also in, you know, semi

tropical environments, where
they have a longer growing

season, suddenly we can expedite
variety trials in different

regions of the world and never,
like, lose that winter, like

that seasonal gap that really
slows down a lot of our regional

breeding programs that are
specific to our regions. I mean,

if we're wanting to go for
species that are adaptive for

this specific climate, we're
kind of stuck with a seasonal

problem. But if we're breeding
for nutrition and culinary

application, I mean, we can, we
can really step that forward

with a collaborative effort.

So the different geographic
areas and ecosystems. Then if

India is a brilliant example,
and it would be a gold mine too,

because you've got millets that
grow right down south in, say,

telonado, where it's the
tropics, you've got it growing

in the center of the dry land.
You've got it growing in

Rajasthan, which is a desert.
And then you've got up in

Uttarakhand, where it's it's the
mountains, way higher, higher

geographically than, you know,
Nepal and so, wow, amazing

variation. So it just goes to
show there's so much exciting to

explore for millet. Yeah,

absolutely. I think that's
always a good push back, like

when I'm, you know, having
lively discussions with

colleagues about, you know, we
have to do genetic modification

in order to advance food
options. And I'm like, Wait,

what about the other 90% of
plants and crops that we've not

even explored from a germ plasm
standpoint? And, you know, and

you know, people often, too,
also say, Oh, well, they're less

efficient. You know, they're
less productive. And I'm like,

Have you ever evaluated
productivity of sorghum as a

commodity against other
commodities like rice and wheat?

In our neck of the woods out
here, we've had some really

successful sorghum trials where
the sorghum has outperformed

wheat in yield, and so it really
starts to push that paradigm.

But sorghum has a lot more
breeding um than than proso

millet has that foxtail is and
Pearl. I mean, they're all

lagging behind, but to me, that
is a really great example of

like, what lays ahead as we
drive that innovation and and

develop the varieties that have
the yield and have the

efficiency, have the culinary
application. And you know what

the potential is? It's literally
like the to me, it's very

provocative, and I'm surprised
that not more, you know,

breeders are getting involved
with it. Yeah. Well, we

need the science, but I think if
we can marry that science with

also working with tradition and
countries and areas where

they've been growing, growing
the millets, they have the

traditional varieties. Knowledge
how we can leverage both, I

think, is it's going to be good
we move the industry forward.

How we move forward? Because
before, when I talked about that

food system divide and big three
that are well supported, we also

have to learn from the big
three, the weak maize, and learn

from their successes, and learn
from where things weren't done

right, to make sure we get it
right for millets, you know, we

still could end up with millet
that are mono cropped, that are

destroying the soil, that are
overusing the chemicals, not

Using the regenerative
agriculture. And we can end up

with millet that are polished
and refined, like rice as well.

At the moment, they're really
healthy because majority are

sold as a whole grain, and
that's another big thing I like,

pushes a whole grain and the
value of that, yeah. So we have

to be careful how we develop the
industry and guide it, and learn

from, you know, the lessons that
have from the past. Now, that's

a really good point, you know,
it's, it's interesting, because

in this process where we are,
you know, really just beginning

this pro so millet value chain
development and and we've been

targeting organic farmers in the
northern Great Plains and Inland

Northwest. And you know, it's
they're so hungry for crop

rotations because they know that
their soil is becoming depleted

because the market is only
demanding a couple of crops. And

you know, they have to grow
those crops because that's

what's paying the bills. And so
it's been really neat talking to

farmers across a very large
geographical area about their

needs and and in the role that
these diverse grains like

millets. I mean, proso millet is
the subject of that

conversation. But of course, we
talk about Pearl and foxtail

under you know, underrepresented
we. Groups like flax, legumes,

like all that diversity, and
really that's whenever I'm

talking to farmers, that is the
takeaway. Story is like, bring

me a market that rewards me for
diversity, and we will be more

effective as farmers. That's the
takeaway. And I think, I think

millets play a huge role in
that,

absolutely. Because even when we
talk about diversifying the

staples, it's not with just
anything. And that was the value

of millets that was good for you
the planet, and the farmer

vantages to it that it's a good
one to bring in for

diversification. But you know,
we've talked a lot about driving

the demand in the markets, which
is where I had focused on with a

lot of my work under the smart
food movement. But we've really

come to now feeling like we need
to also spend a huge amount of

time making sure it's then
really, really viable for the

farmer, which isn't just the
market, it's that whole

productivity. Because, like, we
are saying, the science and the

research is behind with the
level that we've been able to do

on it, and we really need some
breakthroughs to take it to that

next level. Absolutely,

you know, one of the things I've
discovered in this, you know,

kind of preliminary research and
into these, you know, the

questionnaires with the farmers
is they don't have access to

agronomy, and agronomists that
that are knowledgeable about

growing crops, like proso
Miller, and so that's a gap that

we've identified. And you know,
because they're in very remote

parts the United States where
there's really low populations,

in general, we're exploring ways
that we can develop like chat

GPT model modules that are
trained in um agronomy for that

crop that are like, as close to
as as you know, close to soil

type and as close to region as
possible, and then working with

extension and stuff, so that we
can provide them with tools,

like, so that they're out in the
farm, and they're like, I don't

know what to do about This. I
don't have an agronomist to

call. They can actually use a
technical service provider chat

and at least have something to
kind of walk them through. Like,

is this ready? Do I plant it
yet? What do I need to do? And,

you know, again, like technology
for this technology sake, can be

a big waste of time and money,
but technology, when it creates

democratized access to education
and resources that will up the

odds of them succeeding and de
risk them. You know, adding that

diversity and planting that new
crop, to me, that's a game

changer.

I love that idea, and using the
AI, we have to do that to move

ahead. So that's

needed access. So yeah, I love
it. Joanna, you and I, whenever

we get on a call together, I
think we could just talk for

hours. So I know I need to go to
Australia or wherever you're

located, because you do get
around quite a bit, and either

that or you can come to Idaho
and visit sometime. It's

beautiful, but, um, but where,
you know, I have a feeling our

listeners would love to learn
more, and, you know, follow your

work, maybe reach out to you
with questions. How should they

do that? What's the best place
to read more about your work?

LinkedIn is the best. Um, no one
else has a surname the same as

mine in the world. Yeah,

you and I both, keeps us honest,
right?

Yeah. So, no, okay, use the best
and connect and chat anytime.

Very happy,

yeah. And honestly, just
Googling you is amazing. Like,

you're one of those people that
if you Google, like, there's

reams of interesting stuff that
comes up, really, in that whole

realm of nutrition, human
health, Marketing, Economics and

agriculture, which is just a,
thank goodness, becoming a more

popular topic all the time. So
I'm happy that Google is

representing your work well in
that regard. So we'll make sure,

we'll put, we'll put some links
in the in the show notes, so

that people can reach out to you
and follow your work. And you

know, for those of you who are
listening, passionate millet

enthusiasts and more, please
take a minute to share this

podcast so other people can
learn about it and learn about

the extraordinary work that
Joanna has done with her career.

And thank you so much for
listening. Make sure to leave a

review as well. And thank you,
Joanna, so great to see you.

Thanks, Joanie,

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