Regenerative by Design

Joanne, hello everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by

design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,

climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell

Moore. Join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of

individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our

food system with both human
health and the health of our

planet.

Hello everybody, and welcome to
another session of regenerative

by design. I'm thrilled with my
guests today, who are calling in

all the way from Europe, and
going to tell you about their

incredible story as innovators
around climate smart the climate

smart crop sorghum. So welcome
anahiya And Sharif and I would

love to just kick off this
session and have you tell us a

little bit about you and your
background. This is you. I know

you both have fantastic stories,
so go ahead and let's start

there.

Thanks a lot. Yoni, we're super
happy to be here. My name is

Anna. I am Dutch. I'm a real
city girl, but at some point in

my life, I moved to France for
love. Was surrounded by

agricultural fields. Had two
kids, and I thought, what are we

doing with the world? Before
that, I'd been in advertising

for a long time, video
production, and then suddenly it

clicked. And I thought, Okay, we
have to, we have to change the

way we feed our kids and future
generations. Found out about a

venture building course in my
home country in Rotterdam, moved

back and learned all you can
learn in three months about

regenerative agriculture, which
at the time we thought was a

lot, but now we found that
there's so much more to learn.

And that's where I met Sharif.
Fantastic.

So I'm Sharif. I'm from Lebanon,
and actually I moved to the

Netherlands in 2002 and at that
time, I used to be in a

different field. My background
is Business Administration.

Recently, my company, before
this one, was a barbecue

company, the una grill, which is
a product we developed and

launched worldwide. And you
might say, what does this have

to do with the current field I'm
in now? Actually, the barbecue

has a leather handle, and our
plant based clients used to say,

could we actually change leather
handle to a plant based product?

So it was, for me, the first
venture to see what are the

possibilities. And I discovered
the whole new world of

sustainable products from
agriculture. And that's the step

that brought me into
regenerative agriculture. So

cool,

because I feel like many
innovators in this space. It was

a it was a crash course through
supply chain that led them to

the discovery of the
sustainability and the impact

that every little component that
we consume has on the world. So

I love, I love how your stories
are like, quite different, and

then converge at this point of
you know where sustainable

supply chains and the future of
food intersect, and how did you

guys end up focusing on sorghum?
For people who are listening in

the audience, if they're
familiar with my work, they know

that I am a huge enthusiast for
sorghum and millets in general,

which sorghum is considered a
millet and and basically,

because the premise being that
these are incredibly climate

smart, smart crops naturally. I
mean, they grow very vigorously

in hot, dry conditions. They
they require few fertilizers.

There are so many things that
make crops like sorghum,

incredibly valuable for the
future, but there's a relative

lack of innovation in actually
using these crops in human

products. So when I met both of
you a couple of years ago now, I

was just so thrilled to hear
that you had decided to focus on

this and innovate in Europe. So
if you could tell our listeners

a little bit about what, how you
came together, how you decided

to focus on sorghum, and what
are you doing with sorghum?

We actually, during the course,
we visited a lot of farmers, and

what we soon found out is often
is a big issue, because everyone

talks about practices, but if no
one wants to buy the harvest,

what is a farmer to do? Right?

And then the big problem
everywhere. I mean, people

forget about this. We get so
enchanted by the farm and we

forget about the market.

That's actually where we
thought, okay, we have

experience in we have a
commercial background. So maybe

with this, offtake is actually
where our role in the system is,

what we then what might be good
to share a little bit about

Holland. Land here is extremely
expensive, which means that

everyone is like, we're growing
potatoes, we're growing onions,

we're doing it super
efficiently, super in.

Defensively, I must say, and
grains really are farmers don't

earn money with them. They often
actually kind of lose money with

them, while we know that grains
are super good for the soil. So

we thought, let's make grains
more profitable for farmers, but

then if we have the standard
wheat, this is a very difficult

game to play. We thought we
find, let's say, a unique grain

in Holland, or a grain that is
not very well known, because

here we can really make a
difference. We can campaign for

it. We can we can stand out. So
that's why we picked sort of

also because we just thought it
was an amazingly beautiful crop,

I have to say this it is, and I
would say we weren't attracted.

It was intuitively almost. But
the more we found out about

sorghum, the more we were like
but this is such a special crop.

We met the breeder in Holland
who took the crop from Africa in

Holland and was now cross
breeding to make it suitable for

the Dutch climate. So I think
it's a little bit different from

the sorghum that you're growing
in the states. The sorghum we

are working with is three and a
half meters high, not trend

feet, but it's like twice my
size, and I'm pretty tall. And

then to use it for bio based
materials and the grains. But

the more we learned about
sorghum, the more fascinated we

were by maybe that's, I think,

the fact that it's actually a
crop that not only is the grain

of high value for nutrition and
both for human and animal feed.

And I know sometimes that can be
a polarizing conversation, but

that is a component of it. I
mean, you have to have a Grade A

and A Grade B channel for any
crop, in case the quality is not

quite perfect, but there's a
huge, huge potential for

sorghum, for all the other
components that because it grows

so much biomass every year,
there is an incredible

innovation for fiber, for
extruded fill, for bioreactor. I

mean, it's just crazy. So I love
I feel the same way, you guys, I

I feel like I've been studying
sorghum intensely for about a

decade, and I'm just scratching
the surface. Every day I learn

something new, which blows me
away.

All materials is really part of
the business model, revenue

model for the farmer. We're
trying to find channels how to

increase revenue for the farmer,
and we're really trying to

explore the highest
polarizations possible, whether

in food or whether in non food.
So it's

a really holistic model, which
is important, you know, when we

think about regeneration and
what, what regenerative ag needs

to succeed, is really a shift in
thinking around the value layers

that come off of productive
land. Bushels per acre of a

consumable item is just one
value layer, like there's all

these different value layers.
And I, I've always been so

intrigued since we first met
that you have a very holistic,

circular economy approach to
this. So I'd love to hear a

little bit more about that.

I think really, that's what
we're trying to do, and to use

as much of the plant as we can
to have the highest

valorization, while also keeping
in mind that sorghum is good to

keep on the soil, right? We
don't want to take everything

off the farm and then valorize
it outside. But what might be

interesting to mention is that
we are actually working with

research institutes in Europe to
to really look at the unique

characteristics of the grains
we're working with. So we have a

little bit of knowledge about
sorghum in general, but this

specific, the three specific
varieties we are working with,

there's so much to discover
about them. So both on a

nutritional level and on a I'm
gonna say, fiber materials, more

materials, materials. So we're
doing studies looking into doing

studies with the Technical
University, like the density of

the material, all the what,
really, what makes it unique,

and then based on that, to make
products with it. So we are

working with a food developer
who has turned it into pasta.

We've done pancake mix. We
haven't the sorghum pasta.

Actually, I think it's
available. Yeah, it's, it's for

sale now, the other products we
are, we are testing positive

reactions so far. Yeah,
wonderful, yeah. But the crop is

really unknown. I mean, we do

so much, a huge education gap.
There's a big education gap,

and you mentioned circularity,
and really this is the basis on

which we built our value chain.
So we're really very aware of

the like we don't want waste,
and we try to see, whatever

process we do, what can be the
rest streams? How can we

valorize the rest streams?
Actually? Yeah. And we also look

at sorghum because we have three
varieties. So as anarchy said,

each variety could have
different properties. So we

don't just talk about sorghum in
general. Each variety. We have

to look at what is the quality
of the fiber, what is the

quality of the other components.
And based on this, we can, we

can see which kind of
applications are the most

suitable.

Yeah, let's talk about sorghum
genetic diversity for a second.

Because of, you know, all plants
have pretty incredible genetic

diversity, but I feel like
sorghum in particular is like a

powerhouse of extreme diversity
within just the genus sorghum.

And you know it, I had the
opportunity to go to a sorghum

breeding facility in Texas last
year, led by a gentleman named

Larry Richardson, who is a
internationally renowned sorghum

breeder, and he literally had
hundreds of varieties of sorghum

growing in their experimental
plots that didn't even resemble

each other. I mean, everything
from like sorghum kernels that

were larger than a P, um, to
ones that, have, you know,

really extreme characteristics
with antioxidants or nutritional

profiles. Um, I was absolutely
blown away. Some were like,

very, very short, maybe as like,
as long as my to my waist, and

others were 20 feet tall, and
definitely, like, twice our

height and so probably more like
the ones that you're growing in

the Netherlands. But, you know,
I feel like, from a business

development perspective, sorghum
holds a ton of utility there,

just for, like, future business,
like, you could spend your whole

lifetime just innovating value
stream businesses from sorghum.

Yeah, which is what you guys are
doing. I love it.

This is something, I mean, it's
also in your regenerative

agriculture, you really want to
build on the genome diversity

and diversity as bigger theme in
general. I mean, we're

discussing sorghum here, but I
think we look we really try to

bring a lot of diversity of
different grains, even the

products we think we think of
developing. We really think of

integrating different varieties,
different grains in them, so

that we kind of encourage
diversity on the landscape, and

also diversity in your diets.
100%

I mean, people forget that it's
diversity on the plate that

actually ultimately drives
biodiversity in the field. And

we have to restore that feedback
loop between market and farm and

farm and market, like in a
intelligent way, so that, like

the farmers are responsive to
demand and they, unfortunately,

that's why they just grow corn,
soy and wheat and rice out here

in North America, anyways, like
it's a very limited picture,

actually, what they know,
mostly, and we see that actually

bringing sorghum, especially
here in the Dutch Market, many

farmers are not aware of it,
that the sorghum itself, as we

know, has a lot of
characteristics. One of them is

also the sowing period. So the
sowing period is different than

others. And this is also
interesting, because we've been

having seasons where rain is
falling quite a lot sowing

period of other grains. And
since sorghum is sold a bit

later, it offers an opportunity
of mitigation. So farmers, yeah,

in something Yes. So I'm glad
you

brought that up. We call that
rescue crop here. Um, and it,

and sorghum and millets in
general, can be an extremely

valuable rescue crop. Um, when
everything else has been rained

out early in the spring? Um, I
love that you're bringing that

up, because that's a really
critical piece of the puzzle

when we're looking at overall
food system resiliency

and climate change. But what we
see happening because then like,

that makes sorghum interested in
more interesting for farmers,

but then, like, there's, we have
to move on, on all the fields,

right? We have to educate the
consumer. We have to make

products because we cannot. I
mean, I think sorghum just

boiled is delicious, but, I
mean, it just, it's easier when

we turn it into products

that people need innovation.
That's how they'll discover it.

Yeah, exactly so.

But there's so much work to do
on so many fields. Yeah, we

cannot say, Okay, we start with
the farmers, and then the rest

of the value chain will follow.
No, we have to, everyone has to,

has to step forward and has to
take a leap. Yeah. But the good

thing is, we've, we've started
three years ago. Now we see more

and more people moving forward,
we're talking to restaurants who

are interested, you know, so So
things start moving, and that's

that's really motivating to to
notice that,

to that. I mean, even us, we are
new to this field. So even us,

we've been learning a lot the
last three years. Today is way,

way more than one when we
started. And it's been a big

learning curve for us, and now
we feel like we understand it

much more, and we're ready to
take steps further and to

actually move it more into the
market. But even for us, it's

been quite a learning
experience.

What have been some of the
biggest challenges so far?

We've had many, actually. But
the thing that comes to mind is,

when you're starting something
like a new crop on the market,

you don't start with big volume.
And when we're talking about

grains, grain specific scale is
everything exactly and

everything built on scale and
uniformity. And you come here

with this different grain, which
has a different size, which

needs different process, which
is smaller in quantity, and

suddenly everything changes,
like machinery. For example.

We're talking about the
valorization of food and non

food, and maybe you want to
harvest it in two different

parts. We don't have this
machinery. It grows and a half

meters high, you might not have
the machinery for it. So it's

all this, and at the same time,
you cannot bring products that

are very expensive to the
market, because that's also

something that will not help the
marketing of this crop. So

there's a challenge between all
these costs that are high and

people that have to invest their
time professionals actually, to

kind of explore, what can we do
with this new crop and the

pricing and the costs that build
on small quantities.

Yeah, that's a that's a big
consideration. And you know,

sorghum, in general, globally,
is known as a very affordable

crop because it does grow
incredibly high yields and

requires very few inputs. So the
unit economics at the farm level

are favorable, but it is as it
navigates the value chain that's

where that cost is accrued, even
though, luckily, sorghum doesn't

need to be hold or have special
polishing. It can be consumed as

just a whole clean grain, which
is fantastic. But you know, the

marketing and the innovation
expenses is, it's a large

upfront cost, and I know, in my
experience here, you know, with

my company sactivist, because we
have an entire line of products

developed from sorghum, ranging
from Frozen ready to eat IQF all

the way through to pizza crusts
and finished products, but we're

still stuck just selling a
floured baking mix because there

was no capital available to
scale innovation for the last

few years, nobody had an
appetite. They would only invest

in scaling something that was
already on the market, and so

it's completely hampered that
innovation process. I don't have

you guys experienced that as
well. Just a minimal appetite

for innovation, or maybe that.
It's a communication thing, I

know for us, here in the US, if
you're a woman and you found a

company, it's an expectation you
will be just a brand. Like,

there's it. There's a real
pushback, I feel like,

culturally, if you're an
innovation company, which is

more scientific and more leading
edge, they're kind of like, no,

no. Just go, go be a mom and go
make pancake mix for your kids.

So I don't know if you if you
guys have experienced that tug

of war with culture in the
Netherlands, or if that's more

of a US thing,

producing it here, and we've
been trying, actually, to

introduce it to the market, and
we've been kind of focusing on

chefs. We haven't started TPG
products yet. We're brutal

business, and it brings its own
challenges. Yeah,

I don't like it, yeah.

I mean, we come a bit from this
background, both of us, and we

know the challenges that come
with it, and it was a conscious

decision kind of start B to B as
well.

I think that's so smart. That's
where the volume's at, too. And,

um, you know, like I know for
us, like we ended up, you know,

just pausing our growth of our
CPG brand, because our passion

is around food service, but it
takes time to develop those

relationships like, but once you
have them, they're consistent,

they're reliable, and they're at
scale. So it's like, it's like a

you had to be patient with that
business model, but it's, I

think, has a lot more long term
ROI, and it has a lot more

utility when it comes to driving
discovery of underutilized crops

like you think about quinoa and
how quinoa was brought to the

market successfully. It was when
chefs started putting it on

people's plates, and then they
were like, Oh my gosh, I love

this. I would love to buy this
at home. So like, for the

longest time, I was really
adamant about how food service

had to be the champion of
sorghum and millets first, and

that CPG should come second, and
then covid hit, and that's when

we had to change our business
model, because food service

disappeared overnight. But we're
back to only, you know, really,

only focusing on food service as
well here, domestically. Yeah.

Yeah,

quickly come back to your are we
making moms pancake mixes? I do

think it's a very interesting
topic that you bring up.

Luckily, so far, we find
ourselves surrounded by people

who value, I would say,
diversity as much as we do. So

that's great. And we are now. We
are building a achieve, a value

chain around a product, with a
farmer, a Miller, a food maker,

a caterer, and us, and we are
really looking for the balance.

So when you look at us as a
group, there's women, there's

people who are not originally
born in Holland, you know, we

don't, we don't all want this 32
year old puppy of each other.

You know, we are actually
looking for this, for this

diversity, because we feel that,
in that way, you get the best

results and the most durable.
Well,

how can we think outside of the
box without a diverse group of

people getting us there. Like,
it's like, I think it's

essential for innovation with
new products, to bring

innovative, diverse people to
the table, to to look at things

differently. And it's just
absolutely critical. And it's,

it's actually hard sometimes,
how, how, like, that can kind of

fall short. Like, people just
have this expectation. Like,

here in the United States, they
like the expectation on the

market is that if it's a sorghum
based product, it's only for

gluten free people. And I'm
like, no, no, no no. Like,

sorghum is fantastic blended
with wheat. Like, as soon as we

bring in capital, like, we have
a pasta product that is a wheat

sorghum hybrid. It's a millet
sorghum wheat hybrid. We would

love to get it out into food
service, you know. And it's to

me that those are the kind of
innovations that we need to

break through the stigma that
all of these alternative crops

are only for people with a
special diet, because that's not

the case like I really believe
that sorghum needs to be

reintegrated back into just
mainstream products like and

it's fascinating. There's a guy
here who's a real historian on

on millet history, millets,
including sorghum, and has gone

back through a lot of the
original writings of the the

founding members of the United
States, colonies, like, you

know, the early founding they
called the founding fathers, and

when you read their agricultural
diaries, there's a lot of

reference to sorghum, and they
they mixed it into their bread

flour. And so in colonial
America, it was a revered crop,

especially in the East Coast and
the south, where it's warmer.

And it's so weird to me that it
fell out of favor when it was so

critical to early America, the
early American, you know,

heritage of like, what
agriculture was in the in the

early days,

there's a lot of knowledge lost,
I imagine, yeah, a ton, the food

maker we are working with. He's
from Uganda, and he grew up with

sorghum, like his grandparents
would grow sorghum. He has these

stories. It's a crop that he he
knows. He knows how it reacts,

how it works, yeah, exactly.
That's a big,

I love that. Yeah, absolutely is
a huge advantage.

I think there's quite an
appetite, actually, for

innovation and that. I mean,
everybody wants to kind of bring

something new, have a nice story
to tell, if they can make

something more nutritious, but
at the same time, you see that

there is some kind of checklist
that people want to kind of be

checking. For example, they have
limits on how much pricey it can

be they have. They have certain
tastes they want to have. So I

think it's really like working
together, this, this co creation

idea, even involving the farmer
and bringing back the feedback

loop to the farmer to the
growth. I think this is really

important as well, and product
innovation,

I agree. We have been calling
that model an innovation

brokerage. And it's an
intentional like value chain

connection, where it's from germ
plasm and like seed genetics all

the way through the value chain
to the end use. And like seeing

the whole process holistically,
through that kind of innovation

brokerage concept. It's a lot of
the work that we like to do as

well, and I totally agree that
it gives you, I feel like an

advantage in trying to do things
that are new and novel when you

approach it that way. I don't
know if you guys have ever used

that term

for us. We like to bring
something. We like the

innovation is a big inspiration
for us. Also, yeah,

yeah. It's, it

is the key. So how, as far as,
like, you know, the the the

people who are buying these
products now or sampling them,

like the chefs. So far, what are
the responses that you're

seeing? Are people shocked when
they try sorghum and they're

like, oh my gosh, where's this
been? Why? Why have I never

tried this? Is that what you're
hearing or, or what I would love

to hear more about, like, just
the response from people.

We've had the range of responses
and no responses. So sometimes,

initially, we would give
samples, and we would keep on

following and no response
whatsoever. Other times, really,

I mean the product. They love
it. And for example, they would

create a dessert with it, and
then they would ask for more

than they would block the
program and then put it on a

salad. For example, we've worked
with very different variety,

whether it's chefs that are more
creative, whether it's more

catering companies, but also,
for example, staple foods, which

is more direction we're taking.
So pastas, also bread, mix,

cereal. For breakfast with also,
kind of sent samples to brewers

to see what kind of beers they
can come with sorghum. And we

had, we had quite enthusiastic
responses, not always

translating into big orders, but
I think it's a good start, at

least,

yeah. And people, people love
the taste, and people love the

story. And I think that that is
two things that that really make

the crop stand out. And, yeah, I
think no negative responses. I

mean, sometimes people, they
didn't get back to us, but, but

also the tastings we did for for
the pasta or the or the pancake

mix, or we turn it into a salad,
we had a great intern for a

while, who who made us recipes
and presented them at, yeah,

which was, I would say, everyone
is, everyone loves it. No,

that's been

my experience too. We've
recently, yeah, been like, doing

some tastings with chefs. And we
hear, and I'm sorry, Sheriff, we

hear, why haven't we tried this
before? Like, where has this

been? We hear that a lot.

But then what happens? I'm
curious. Yoni, then, then would

they order in the menu? Or what
would

Yeah, so we have been focusing
more on, like large

organizations that manage many,
many institutional kitchens like

college campuses and hospitals
and so, you know, we did like

the tastings. The chefs couldn't
believe it. They loved it. They

wanted to use it. The people in
charge loved it. Want to use it.

And now we're just like in that
slow contract negotiation phase.

So our hopes is that by getting
into some larger organizations

that we can secure, like, some
really good, larger volumes. And

so it's like, really narrowing
our focus to those consumer

demographics. Like, for example,
with the IQF sorghum, it's a

it's a whole cooked sorghum, and
then it's frozen, and it's

individual, quick frozen. So
it's like, almost like frozen

peas, like it. It's separate.
And what the chefs are loving

about that is that they can just
heat it and serve it, or they

can just thought and put it on
salads. It doesn't even require

heating. It's ready to eat. So
those are the ones that we're

seeing a huge response for. But
again, the time lag of getting

the contract actually solidified
and executed has been painfully

slow, which you guys understand
how frustrating that can be, but

it's just bureaucracy. Maybe

it's also good to look at things
in perspective. I mean,

introducing a new crop, I'm
expecting, expecting volumes

will be picking up in the first
year, is also rushing things. I

think that way, yeah. I think, I
think I mean, upon how the

medium term keeps and can can
kind of build up the demand. I

think this is a more realistic
way to look at things, yeah,

yeah. Well, because the thing
is, is, like, we want it to be a

long term transition and and
really quick fads often really

quickly go away. And with
something like this, it's like

it's going to be a permanent
shift and a new normalcy. And I

agree with you that does take a
little time and patience to get

there, but it's it's worth it in
the long run.

And

another question for you, Yoni,
I'm curious, because you're big

on the full of instead of the
free from. Not sure if I'm using

the exact right phrase, but
yeah, that was right, great. I

wonder if that, if that's
something that resonates with

your audience, or if it's really
the taste or or what you would

say is the most attractive
element,

yeah. So I think, um. Um. One of
the things we've struggled with

um in our early iterations is
that in the United States,

there's this real need to put
everything in a box of like,

it's free from gluten, or it's
free from allergens, or it's

free from grains, or it's free
from animal products. Like, it's

a very reductionistic consumer
navigation pathway. Like, it's

very It's, um, I find it to be
kind of a negative process. I

feel like it isolates innovation
and makes it hard to think about

things in a holistic model.
Like, what are the great

attributes? Like, why would you
want to eat it? It's delicious,

it's nutritious. It's got a
great climate story. Farmers

want to grow it. It's
beneficial, and it has been hard

to really make movement forward
with that narrative, especially

in the retail, which, again,
we've moved away from retail.

But I would sit down with
buyers, and we would talk about

these ancient grains and why
they're so important for all

these things, and then at the
end of the day, all they took

away from it is like, Oh, it's a
gluten free vegan company. I'm

like, No, we are not a gluten
free vegan company by a long

shot. However, if we're going to
make a product out of sorghum,

it may as well be gluten free
and vegan so that the maximum

amount of people can enjoy it. I
think that being full of is so

much more than being free from
personally, and so I've had a

personal frustration with the
market not being ready to accept

that story comes down to,

would you say the audiences,
audiences you work with now that

they are more receptive to this
message, And is that also

because they can then spread
that to their Yeah, I

definitely feel like there's
been a huge shift in the last

year, um, like, especially in
the last year, where people are

just wanting to hear more about
nutrient integrity, whether that

be nutrient density or, you
know, special compounds, like

sorghum is full of compounds
that we know are beneficial to

the gut, for gut microbiome,
those kind of conversations I

feel like are starting to be
heard, and people are moving

away from that. What is it free
of? And instead thinking, why is

this good for me? And that is
really what needs to happen for

for adoption of all of these
opportunity cross crops, a they

need to be delicious. People
need to discover them for

culinary use. But I think they
need to understand that it's,

it's, it's a value to them to
die, to diversify their diet,

regardless of special needs, of,
you know, whatever, of special

dietary needs.

I think actually, we could all
learn from each other. I mean,

we follow, of course, what you
do in the universe. We enjoy a

lot your posts. But also, I
mean, there's a lot of

creativity happening there, and
you are very active on promoting

sorghum. And, yeah, I mean, in
Europe, we also try, in

different ways to and I think
collaboration between us, and

what we find here, what you find
there, is also quite because

it's the markets are asking for
the same things when I hear now,

yeah,

I think so too, yeah. And I
would love to do more

collaboration. I mean, for me,
honestly, it's, it's, um, it's

trying to figure out where those
path of least resistance

initiatives lie. Like, where are
those things that people try and

have that aha moment, like
chefs, and then they make that

commitment, like, I'm going to
be getting this on the plate,

and then how do we support them
in telling that story? Like, I

feel like there's a really
strong need for point of

consumption education. So if
somebody's eating sorghum for

the first time at a restaurant,
like I don't know how to do

this, but do we give them a QR
code that they can scan and

learn about it? Do they care?
Are they going to take the time

to do that? Those are those
questions I still have, and I'd

be curious to know, if you guys
have explored any of that,

maybe we are actually currently
exploring. And I would say that,

like sorghum is one of the crops
we're looking at, but we're also

looking at other grains and
then. But the question is also,

what are what are you then? What
is behind this QR code, right?

Do people, would they like to
meet the farmer around them that

is growing the crops? Would they
like to meet the guy who's

turning these local grains into
pastas that they've never eaten

and that right bloat them? Would
they like to meet the miller

who, because of his strong male,
is not losing all of the fibers

that the grain,

the missing middle no one ever
tells those stories like it's

sad to me, yeah.

So what is it that people would
like to know? And I think we've,

we've now seen kind of scan a QR
code and meet your farmer, but

there's so much more to tell
about a crop. There's so much

more about about a product,
right? So, so we are not. It's

kind of playing with it. What do
we want to show do we want to,

as you said, all the increased
nutritional values. Do we talk

about this? Yeah, so we're
testing this.

I know it's like hard to know
what the most important point

is. And I'm really glad that you
mentioned the the humanization

of the value chain, because yes,
there's this thing of like, Oh,

where did our food come from? We
want to see a human who grew it

like, who's the farmer, who's
the rancher, and then the whole

middle is like a missing,
dehumanized, mechanistic realm.

But the reality is, is like,
those are all people who are

business owners and dedicated
people who are touching your

food, and they are making it
into what it is when you consume

it, I get very frustrated that
we don't give any attention to

that layer. It's completely,
Yeah,

completely agree. It's, it's the
people that we want to to show.

We want to show it's produced on
a human scale, but also how

impactful the processing step is
for the end result. Because it

is not only the program that is
suddenly going to end up as a

past hour, as a as another food
product. It's how you process

it. In the middle define so much
of of what it becomes, of the

quality of it. You can lose so
much during processing at the

same time, it can also add so
much. So we are, yeah, great,

and a lot of, a lot of the cost
is reflective of that value

chain, and it's, it's
meaningful,

and I would maybe add also, I
mean, there's a lot of nice

stories that can be told and but
it's also important to see what,

what is actually having effect
on the end consumer. What would

help selling the product, being
away, of course, from

greenwashing. But sometimes you
would wonder, I mean, is it, for

example, that if the if the if
the consumer knows that this

product's coming from this farm,
is this going to help the

growing the market, for the
farmer, because for the for the

product itself. And these are,
these are things that we're

still trying to see, what, what
actually would work, what kind

of message,

big audience, right? Because, of
course, there are some people

interested in where their food
grows, but maybe the majority of

the people they want to know
that is good, small,

yeah, I think, I think the
average person is, like, their

first level of interest is,
obviously, it doesn't taste

good, and can I afford it? But
then second is, is, is it good

for me? And then sourcing and
impact, whether that be social

or environmental, seems to be
further down as far as driving,

purchasing or driving, the
decision to try a product. So I

feel like the focus on nutrition
and how it affects your body

here in the United States is
probably the most important

thing to lead with so far. I get
really excited about the climate

part of it, but the reality is,
is that I think the vast

majority of consumers are kind
of far removed from that.

At least here, it's too bad. But
for

businesses, for example, a lot
of businesses in Europe are

putting climate targets and CO
two reduction limits, and one of

the criteria they look at is
actually, what is the footprint

of the product? Yeah, yep, if
your customer is a business, I

think this aspect gains in
importance, and the more you

show them actually how how
better this is or how it can

help with reducing the
footprint, the better it can be

such an important point, because
that's a B to B sales

conversation, not necessarily B
to C, like the end end. Consumer

may not care a whole lot, but
the buyer who agreed to serve

that at their college campus
cafeteria, that was likely their

decision. They were like, Great,
this tastes good. I know with us

in our in our corporate
initiatives that we have, the

one that involves sorghum, it
was 100% because of a climate

initiative that they agreed to
do. IQF sorghum. Yeah, so I that

I'm so glad you brought that up
sherry.

And if that's the way in, then,
then that's the way in, right?

We believe so much and in the
crops that, yeah, that then the

crop will do its own setting. I
mean, if that's how people,

yeah, it's all good,

exactly. We have to be creative
when creating a category around

underutilized crops, and I'm
really pleased to see that

there's just every week, I see
more and more momentum, there's

more awareness, and I'm seeing
more and more articles coming

from government, NGOs and
private sector all together. So

it makes me feel confident that
the future is going there and.

For those of us who are very
early adopters, it's a little

bit rough because you're like
the point of the spear, but you

know it's I'm feeling hopeful
that we're getting closer every

day. So I Yeah, exactly so. So
for both of you, for our

listeners who'd like to follow
up, they want to see where they

could get your products. They
want to maybe engage with you

personally. How? How do they
best do that? As far as

websites, social media, etc,

I would say the best thing to do
is to follow us on LinkedIn or

springtail, and we have a nice
logo that kind of you see a

crop, and then you see a plus.
It was nature positivity. This

was kind of our generation.
That's where we do most of our

updates. Look we visited this
mill. This is what we learned

there. This is why processing is
so important. Yeah, fun. I mean

things people make with sorghum.
We will share other insights.

Great. Does springtail have a
website? We do go to

springtel.eu springtel.eu We are
quite ambitious in keeping it up

to date. But I have to say the
LinkedIn like, there's so many

things that I'm I'm

totally in the same camp. That's
where, like all the most up to

date stuff happens for for us
too, is LinkedIn. That's great.

So for I will make sure to put
those links in the show notes so

that people can follow you and
engage with you on LinkedIn and

also find your website. And this
has just been great you guys. I

you know, I am really pleased
you took the time out of your

busy week on a Friday afternoon,
and, yeah, it's just, it's just

been great to get an update.
Honestly, I'm, I'm more excited

than I was before, to just keep
up with what you guys are doing

and see how we can work together
to just make sorghum and other

great climate smart crops the
norm. Thank you so much. You're

welcome. Thank you for joining
me. And for those of you

listening, please take a second
to review and to share. If

you're also passionate about
innovation, European markets and

climate, smart crops, just take
a second to drop this link into

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